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Tweedy/Perfect Legend Drama, No Variations, and More - Podcast Discussion

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
i think the main concern a lot of players have is that the game is not concrete yet and things are still being changed around this late into the development cycle. im a casual player and it makes even me nervous that they dont have anything set into stone already. doesnt give much player confidence as far as base fighting game structure goes.
this, so much this.
 

wsj515

This is my billionth life cycle.
First of all, do we know that there will be variations? NRS has used the term "customizable loadouts" more so than variations in the character breakdown videos. Second of all, nobody is "theory crafting" and discussing special move properties and frame data. All competitive players in the community would simply like to know what the tournament standards will be like, which begs certain questions. If "customizable loadouts" are the tournament standard, how are players supposed to know which normal or special moves have been selected for a character? Will all special moves shown in the character trailers thus far even be tournament legal? If I had to guess, I assume there will be three variations for each character. But then why has NRS not said so in the videos? Even if I never travel and compete, I would like to know in advance which moves I am allowed to use when I play a serious set with my local scene. I am not sure why some of you have such a difficult time following this rudimentary logic and recognizing the dilemma unless of course you only care about casual gameplay, which is your prerogative.
Everything you are mentioning is important to know at some point, but literally none of it is relevant until the game comes out and we can actually play. You knowing in advance what moves are tournament legal/will be included in tournament variations literally does nothing, except allow you to think about the moves and theorycraft, which is why I mentioned it. Not trying to be cute here, but I am also not sure why you are having such a difficult time following this line of logic as well.

Also, maybe semantics/you meant something else with the last sentence, but where is the dilemma? We aren't choosing between things here, we just don't have every single piece of info about the game.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Everything you are mentioning is important to know at some point, but literally none of it is relevant until the game comes out and we can actually play. You knowing in advance what moves are tournament legal/will be included in tournament variations literally does nothing, except allow you to think about the moves and theorycraft, which is why I mentioned it. Not trying to be cute here, but I am also not sure why you are having such a difficult time following this line of logic as well.

Also, maybe semantics/you meant something else with the last sentence, but where is the dilemma? We aren't choosing between things here, we just don't have every single piece of info about the game.
You are missing my point. To reiterate, I am curious about and interested in general tournament standards. I could not careless about which special moves Scorpion, for example, will have in which variations or loadouts. However, I would like to be informed of the developers' basic tournament plans and initial rules (i.e., Will there even be variations? If so, how many? Will "custom loadouts" have an impact on competitive play, if any?). If these questions and gameplay aspects are yet to be finalized, then just so on stream and stop contradicting your own statements. As Tom indicated on the podcast, Kabal is referred to as a straightforward yet effective character that requires limited execution because of the removal of nomad dash cancels. Five minutes later, the developers suddenly claim that the player can add a cancelable nomad dash and make the character execution heavy. Huh? What?
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
You are missing my point. To reiterate, I am curious about and interested in general tournament standards. I could not careless about which special moves Scorpion, for example, will have in which variations or loadouts. However, I would like to be informed of the developers' basic tournament plans and initial rules (i.e., Will there even be variations? If so, how many? Will "custom loadouts" have an impact on competitive play, if any?). If these questions and gameplay aspects are yet to be finalized, then just so on stream and stop contradicting your own statements. As Tom indicated on the podcast, Kabal is referred to as a straightforward yet effective character that requires limited execution because of the removal of nomad dash cancels. Five minutes later, the developers suddenly claim that the player can add a cancelable nomad dash and make the character execution heavy. Huh? What?
They said Jade is a zoning character who struggles if one gets in, 5 minutes later they you add some moves to make her play like a rushdown character and she even has run cancels.
 

wsj515

This is my billionth life cycle.
You are missing my point. To reiterate, I am curious about and interested in general tournament standards. I could not careless about which special moves Scorpion, for example, will have in which variations or loadouts. However, I would like to be informed of the developers' basic tournament plans and initial rules (i.e., Will there even be variations? If so, how many? Will "custom loadouts" have an impact on competitive play, if any?). If these questions and gameplay aspects are yet to be finalized, then just so on stream and stop contradicting your own statements. As Tom indicated on the podcast, Kabal is referred to as a straightforward yet effective character that requires limited execution because of the removal of nomad dash cancels. Five minutes later, the developers suddenly claim that the player can add a cancelable nomad dash and make the character execution heavy. Huh? What?
I agree that Kabal thing made no sense, but not really relevant?

Please humor me - Imagine NRS tweets out right now the answers to each of those questions - will there be variations, how many, custom/not. Now explain to me what this now means to you, and what can you actually do with that info? If I'm a pro (early-access events notwithstanding) or a casual, none of this info matters until mid April when I can actually play in (or watch) the tournaments that those rules officiate...
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
That Kabal talking point is baffling. Kabal's run cancel in this game is clearly just a cancel that keeps him safe since he goes right to block and has a limited amount of uses since it's tied to bar. There is no reason he still can't be incredibly straightforward even with that move attached.
 

16 Bit

Mash d+1~Cat Claws
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
Kabal's base kit and 2 of the 3 load outs I setup did not have Nomad Dash Cancel. When I said he is a simple 50/50 character with low execution I was talking about that. Then I showed a load out that has Nomad Dash Cancel equipped as an example of how you could play a more execution based Kabal if you choose. If you choose to equip NDC you're giving up a slot for another move, so for example you could use none of his low special moves and forgo the 50/50 aspect completely.

Jade is a heavy zoner in that she has several good zoning moves you can choose to equip and good anti-zoning in her base kit. When talking about her as a zoner I had Up Glaive, Air Glaive, and Ground Spark equipped. I used all 3 slots to maximize her zoning potential. However in the second load out I mixed it up by giving her Pole Vault and Pole Vault Cancel to improve her rush down at the expense of zoning.

Another example would be that Geras can swap out his running command grab with a choke slam that leads to big combos. While you'd typically consider him a grappler who doesn't do big combos you can choose to set him up to not have his core command grab at all.

Because of the nature of the kustom variation system when I talk about a character's archtype there will often be exceptions depending on the load out, which I'm specifically showing by having multiple load outs to go over.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
First of all, do we know that there will be variations? NRS has used the term "customizable loadouts" more so than variations in the character breakdown videos. Second of all, nobody is "theory crafting" and discussing special move properties and frame data. All competitive players in the community would simply like to know what the tournament standards will be like, which begs certain questions. If "customizable loadouts" are the tournament standard, how are players supposed to know which normal or special moves have been selected for a character? Will all special moves shown in the character trailers thus far even be tournament legal? If I had to guess, I assume there will be three variations for each character. But then why has NRS not said so in the videos? Even if I never travel and compete, I would like to know in advance which moves I am allowed to use when I play a serious set with my local scene. I am not sure why some of you have such a difficult time following this rudimentary logic and recognizing the dilemma unless of course you only care about casual gameplay, which is your prerogative.



I am certain the game they are playing is an older version, but you can make an argument they are learning the fundamental gameplay elements of the game. Nonetheless, people who could not careless about tournament standards most likely could not careless about high level players and early access. I am sure lots of people will acquire the game early through illegal measures, which cannot be regulated. So this point is entirely irrelevant.
I personally do not care who gets the game early or who has early access. But my point is that the variation complaint seems like such a non factor. It’s like complaining that you don’t know the full roster, which again, THAT is even a more valid complaint imo.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
So you want to go back to the dark ages when games came out without anybody competitive looking at them in advance?
How did you get that from what I said. That’s 100% a strawman argument. I’m talking specifically about the complaint at hand. As I said to Dave, we don’t even know the full roster yet so not knowing every variation and exactly what all of them possess is a non issue imo.
 
So you would rather them not show any moves unless you know which ones are tied to which variation? They are just showing off their custom variations which is fine lol. You don’t care about custom variations because you can’t use them in tournaments and that’s why you’re irritated?

I can understand that you want more information for the competitive scene but how is it important information if it changes before launch though? That is obsolete information. Like the unbalanced damage data they keep telling everyone to relax about.
you're definitely just making up stuff. i want to see moves but not for them to randomly show off their custom variations that I probably won't get to actually use anyway. I never said anything about using them in tournament and I'm not even a tournament player. I just want to avoid another injustice 2 situation. is that so wrong? you don't remember how stupid it was to see injustice characters do cool shit and then it turns out you can't use that stuff online ranked anyway
 
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Kabal's base kit and 2 of the 3 load outs I setup did not have Nomad Dash Cancel. When I said he is a simple 50/50 character with low execution I was talking about that. Then I showed a load out that has Nomad Dash Cancel equipped as an example of how you could play a more execution based Kabal if you choose. If you choose to equip NDC you're giving up a slot for another move, so for example you could use none of his low special moves and forgo the 50/50 aspect completely.

Jade is a heavy zoner in that she has several good zoning moves you can choose to equip and good anti-zoning in her base kit. When talking about her as a zoner I had Up Glaive, Air Glaive, and Ground Spark equipped. I used all 3 slots to maximize her zoning potential. However in the second load out I mixed it up by giving her Pole Vault and Pole Vault Cancel to improve her rush down at the expense of zoning.

Another example would be that Geras can swap out his running command grab with a choke slam that leads to big combos. While you'd typically consider him a grappler who doesn't do big combos you can choose to set him up to not have his core command grab at all.

Because of the nature of the kustom variation system when I talk about a character's archtype there will often be exceptions depending on the load out, which I'm specifically showing by having multiple load outs to go over.
ok but can you speak on whether or not the kustom variation system will be usable in say ranked online? is it too early to speak on something like that? are ranked players going to just be regulated to 3 variations? is this just going to be another injustice 2 situation where all those extra moves didn't even really matter to ranked or tournament play
 

Killusion

Stream addict
Fun show!

I just want every move to be usable in some form, even if it takes 5 variations for each character.
BTW like REO said I too would hate it if Scorpion had like 7 variations and Baraka had 3. Popularity already dictates how many costumes each character gets, it shouldn't affect gameplay.
 
ok but can you speak on whether or not the kustom variation system will be usable in say ranked online? is it too early to speak on something like that? are ranked players going to just be regulated to 3 variations? is this just going to be another injustice 2 situation where all those extra moves didn't even really matter to ranked or tournament play
This is my concern to, I was super hyped for IJ2 before launch, then it all came crashing down with a thud when half the moves didn't really exist in game unless I wanted to play against the AI.
 

SaSSolino

Soul Stealing Loyalist
I think PL gets so much shit because he was a villain and talked a lot of trash, so now that he's all washed up people talk trash on him. What goes around comes around.
 

Kroaken

Life is a block string with no gaps.
Kabal's base kit and 2 of the 3 load outs I setup did not have Nomad Dash Cancel. When I said he is a simple 50/50 character with low execution I was talking about that. Then I showed a load out that has Nomad Dash Cancel equipped as an example of how you could play a more execution based Kabal if you choose. If you choose to equip NDC you're giving up a slot for another move, so for example you could use none of his low special moves and forgo the 50/50 aspect completely.

Jade is a heavy zoner in that she has several good zoning moves you can choose to equip and good anti-zoning in her base kit. When talking about her as a zoner I had Up Glaive, Air Glaive, and Ground Spark equipped. I used all 3 slots to maximize her zoning potential. However in the second load out I mixed it up by giving her Pole Vault and Pole Vault Cancel to improve her rush down at the expense of zoning.

Another example would be that Geras can swap out his running command grab with a choke slam that leads to big combos. While you'd typically consider him a grappler who doesn't do big combos you can choose to set him up to not have his core command grab at all.

Because of the nature of the kustom variation system when I talk about a character's archtype there will often be exceptions depending on the load out, which I'm specifically showing by having multiple load outs to go over.
ok but can you speak on whether or not the kustom variation system will be usable in say ranked online? is it too early to speak on something like that? are ranked players going to just be regulated to 3 variations? is this just going to be another injustice 2 situation where all those extra moves didn't even really matter to ranked or tournament play
Pretty much this. Are you allowed to say anything/what the discussion sounds like on your side of things?
 

stokedAF

casual kahnage
you're definitely just making up stuff. i want to see moves but not for them to randomly show off their custom variations that I probably won't get to actually use anyway. I never said anything about using them in tournament and I'm not even a tournament player. I just want to avoid another injustice 2 situation. is that so wrong? you don't remember how stupid it was to see injustice characters do cool shit and then it turns out you can't use that stuff online ranked anyway
I’m not accusing I’m just asking. I’m not saying you’re wrong at all. My point is that you are avoiding an injustice situation by them not showing you cool shit just to pull the rug out at launch. They are keeping things close to their chest for whatever reason.
 

Crimea

Noob
I prefer their mkx kombat kasts where they showed "the real" variations.

For example they showed Jade's custom zoning variation with 4 different projectiles (straight boomerang, up boomerang, air boomerang, low projectile), but we don't know if there will be a tournament variation with all these 4 projectiles included or it will be only her 3 boomerangs in one variation and her low projectile exclusively in another variation.
 
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John Grizzly

The axe that clears the forest
I love Brady but his constant sports analogies are absurd. He compared Joe Montana to Perfect Legend. It makes no sense. Montana is an all-time great, yes, but if he played NOW, he would get fucking destroyed, obviously. Tweedy is a current top 5 NRS player easily. PL is not in the same league. Tom's example basically would suggest that Joe Montana can claim Patrick Mahomes is afraid to play against him RIGHT NOW, which is what PL is doing.

Absolutely absurd.
 

trufenix

bye felicia
How did you get that from what I said. That’s 100% a strawman argument. I’m talking specifically about the complaint at hand. As I said to Dave, we don’t even know the full roster yet so not knowing every variation and exactly what all of them possess is a non issue imo.
I am no man of straws, I quoted the part that was relevant and now you're ducking it by bringing up the original point.

How do you want games to have exposure from competitive players (balancing, opinions, sharing with us, just generally bro-ing down with devs) without competitive players getting early access? You definitively stated that you think its a problem that some players are getting early access.

You're old enough to remember what MK9 was like on launch.