A community tier list, with contributions from some TYM members

[Blewdew]

also, I'm certain there is a zero percent chance that Cold placement isn't directly linked to the skullfucking Sonic gave HoneyBee last week. HoneyBee almost outright says as much in this video.

But he‘s kinda right that if sonicfox can do that with captain cold theoretically everyone can, so I see where honeybees coming from. But I don‘t really agree with a top 10 placing either I‘d put flash there as well.

 

[Cursa]

But he‘s kinda right that if sonicfox can do that with captain cold theoretically everyone can, so I see where honeybees coming from. But I don‘t really agree with a top 10 placing either I‘d put flash there as well.

Theoretically being the operative word.

 

[God Confirm]

thing is you have to compare what sonicfox does with cold to what sonicfox would do with every other character even the ones he hasnt played for that to be a fair measure of a character and it doesnt sound at all like thats what these two are doing. Just gotta account for the fact that sonic is better than everyone, its nothing new

 

[Cursa]

thing is you have to compare what sonicfox does with cold to what sonicfox would do with every other character even the ones he hasnt played for that to be a fair measure of a character and it doesnt sound at all like thats what these two are doing. Just gotta account for the fact that sonic is better than everyone, its nothing new

Tbh Sonic should just be added to every NRS tier list, might as well at this point

 

[ChatterBox]

I'm gonna sound like an old man here but this needs to be said: a tier list is not who you think has the best tools against a training dummy, or who looks cool on youtube. It is a matchup based system for ranking how each character does in this game. "I feel cold isn't top ten" "Flash has the best comeback factor" "only sonic can place with this character" are totally useless to this discussion. It's a waste of our time to read.

 

[Blewdew]

thing is you have to compare what sonicfox does with cold to what sonicfox would do with every other character even the ones he hasnt played for that to be a fair measure of a character and it doesnt sound at all like thats what these two are doing. Just gotta account for the fact that sonic is better than everyone, its nothing new

I’m not saying that you‘re wrong but honeybee isn‘t either even tho it‘s a kinda weak argument tbh. If you look at characters objectivly everyone plays the same Captain cold, so in theory if sonicfox can make it work with him some other person Could do that as well. Of course the world doesn‘t work like that because Sonicfox is just an extremely good Player overall and Could probably make Every character work. A players skill shouldn‘t Be the main factor why a character is in a speficic tier.

 

[God Confirm]

I’m not saying that you‘re wrong but honeybee isn‘t either even tho it‘s a kinda weak argument tbh. If you look at characters objectivly everyone plays the same Captain cold, so in theory if sonicfox can make it work with him some other person Could do that as well. Of course the world doesn‘t work like that because Sonicfox is just an extremely good Player overall and Could probably make Every character work. A players skill shouldn‘t Be the main factor why a character is in a speficic tier.

thats exactly my point

 

[EntropicByDesign]

The levels of hypocrisy, argument-option-selecting, intent/word twisting and clique/elitism in this thread is DEF higher tier than WoWo.

*clears throat* Ahem.

I think Blue Beetle is the best character in the entire game. By a noticeable margin. Ive spent some time putting together my reasoning, and I have some pretty compelling evidence of this fact.

 

[God Confirm]

The levels of hypocrisy, argument-option-selecting, intent/word twisting and clique/elitism in this thread is DEF higher tier than WoWo.

*clears throat* Ahem.

I think Blue Beetle is the best character in the entire game. By a noticeable margin. Ive spent some time putting together my reasoning, and I have some pretty compelling evidence of this fact.

lolol *grabs popcorn*

honestly they won't hear you tho, you need to BREAK IT DOWN for them first

 

[Espio]

lolol *grabs popcorn*

honestly they won't hear you tho, you need to BREAK IT DOWN for them first

If you're saying a character is the best in the game which is devoid of all consensus in the community (not just those who made this chart of course) you SHOULD probably explain it.

But of course that's treating people as equals. If an argument is to be entertained there should be some level of give and take.


Really though, I cannot say he is wrong until I get the data to argue so yes, I would like it broken down instead of just saying he is wrong.

 

[God Confirm]

If you're saying a character is the best in the game which is devoid of all consensus in the community (not just those who made this chart of course) you SHOULD probably explain it.

But of course that's treating people as equals. If an argument is to be entertained there should be some level of give and take.


Really though, I cannot say he is wrong until I get the data to argue so yes, I would like it broken down instead of just saying he is wrong.

sure I fully agree and I think he does too, I'm pretty certain his post is just meme'ing the people who did exactly what you just said, gave a bunch of character placements and said they had all the reasoning behind it, but then expected people to tell them how they are wrong without being able to explain how they came to those numbers in the first place

 

[wsj515]

I don't actually think Adam wins, I've always thought it's been a 5-5. I just wanted to throw in my 2c cause no one seems to mention this.

After hands Adam can walk back/backdash (not played the MU recently, can't remember which one it is) and very easily whiff punish a follow up F23.

Supes has to make a hard read to punish a backdash and commit to a fwd dash himself as none of his buttons catch it. This is obviously very easily whiff punished.

B2 to whiff punish pokes. Safe and can be made plus with trait to continue pressure.

IIRC, the F12 string will catch Supes' backdash after hands. Can't remember if it's actually a punish or whether it forces him to block afterwards, either way it's still significant enough that it's worth mentioning.

And finally there's MbB3 or F3, which will beat out F23 if Supes doesn't have trait on. I think this meta is actually really strong and shouldn't just be glossed over when talking about the MU. It's really similar to the breath meta game

So I've been double checking all of this just to be sure, and I think you are missing some things. As a reminder, all this stuff is after a blocked lightning hands:

Adam cannot walk or backdash to whiff punish f23. The only thing he can do if he doesn't want to hold a followup f23 is d1, but that's a hard read and can be punished. Superman can also do a flying punch to punish a backlash clean, but obviously thats a very hard read.

Adam cannot B2 after lightning hands, as there is no reason for Superman to poke here. Supes' d1 is out of range, and his f23 already beats out a f1 from adam, so poking isn't covering anything.

Already went over how Supes can punish a followup f12 if Supes backdashes.

MbB3 or F3 can beat out a f23 from Supes. However, I think that you cannot neglect the fact that in these situations Supes does have his trait activated a non-negligible amount of the time, completely removing the option. If Superman just holds back after lightning hands, both f3 and b3 whiff, leading to a punish.

You're welcome to double check me, a lot of this stuff is hard to check (at least for me) for sure outside of having two people in practice mode. Assuming I'm not royally fucking something up, I still think the f23 breath meta is way better than the lightning hands meta.

 

[Cursa]

I'm gonna sound like an old man here but this needs to be said: a tier list is not who you think has the best tools against a training dummy, or who looks cool on youtube. It is a matchup based system for ranking how each character does in this game. "I feel cold isn't top ten" "Flash has the best comeback factor" "only sonic can place with this character" are totally useless to this discussion. It's a waste of our time to read.

Cold matchups haven't been developed enough to regard him as top 10 yet and his high level representation basically comes down to only Sonic, who could make a 5-5 look like a 6-4. I don't think it's impossible to take some of his MU knowledge from watching him play/talk about it but I think it seriously has to be considered that this is Sonic who has done things like 3-0 Foreverking's pre-patch Batman with his pre-patch Joker, who were basically on opposite ends of the tier list at the time.

I'll admit I'm wrong in that I haven't given any Flash MU numbers, but a significant number of people are starting to believe that he doesn't lose as many MU's as people like Honeybee would let you believe. I've mentioned his tools and how strong they can be if applied correctly, he has a pretty strong amount of high level representation to help prove it, and it can't be denied that his raw damage output combined with his 50/50 game make him extremely strong. Yes he gets zoned out, but he seriously needs one opening to win a round in some cases, it can't be ignored that you basically need to keep Flash out infinitely, where he has RMS and quantum tunnelling as tools to help him get in, or play the life lead respectively.

Having a comeback factor is a strong tool against a character who's main damage comes from minor chip i.e zoners.

 

[Marinjuana]

If Sonicfox picked Zod against Luthor are we just gonna be like "oh it's Sonic just being Sonic" when he bodies? I get that we don't want to knee jerk everytime he wins a match with a character, but when he consistently shows the value of a character in different matchups against good competition then you should take what you see at face value.

 

[Cursa]

If Sonicfox picked Zod against Luthor are we just gonna be like "oh it's Sonic just being Sonic" when he bodies? I get that we don't want to knee jerk everytime he wins a match with a character, but when he consistently shows the value of a character in different matchups against good competition then you should take what you see at face value.

Can't say I know the example given.

I understand that he obviously does know Colds' tools and does display how they should be used effectively but Cold has one post-patch representation (Sonic is only one I see at least) who has consistently 3-0'd top tier characters while using bottom tier characters throughout IJ2's life

All I'm saying is that despite how many waves Sonic makes with a character it doesn't just automatically make the character suddenly top 10. I think Cold is better, and even though the patch has been out for awhile now, it's still a pretty bold claim to say that an arguably bottom 5 character is now top 10 with one person basically representing him.

 

[The_Tile]

So I've been double checking all of this just to be sure, and I think you are missing some things. As a reminder, all this stuff is after a blocked lightning hands:

Adam cannot walk or backdash to whiff punish f23. The only thing he can do if he doesn't want to hold a followup f23 is d1, but that's a hard read and can be punished. Superman can also do a flying punch to punish a backlash clean, but obviously thats a very hard read.

Adam cannot B2 after lightning hands, as there is no reason for Superman to poke here. Supes' d1 is out of range, and his f23 already beats out a f1 from adam, so poking isn't covering anything.

Already went over how Supes can punish a followup f12 if Supes backdashes.

MbB3 or F3 can beat out a f23 from Supes. However, I think that you cannot neglect the fact that in these situations Supes does have his trait activated a non-negligible amount of the time, completely removing the option. If Superman just holds back after lightning hands, both f3 and b3 whiff, leading to a punish.

You're welcome to double check me, a lot of this stuff is hard to check (at least for me) for sure outside of having two people in practice mode. Assuming I'm not royally fucking something up, I still think the f23 breath meta is way better than the lightning hands meta.

Nice job actually testing all this, all of the knowledge I have comes from actual real games instead of labbing so I could've been off with a few things. I'll go back and actually lab it when I have the time

 

[TarkatanDentist]

Also for the record I don't think Flash is top 10 free but I doubt people who say he isn't a strong contender. If he's not top 10 then it's likely because there are 10 better characters, not because he is a bad character

Is there really anyone out there saying that Flash is a bad character? I'd have thought him being in the top half of the cast wasn't really debatable...

 

[Cursa]

Is there really anyone out there saying that Flash is a bad character? I'd have thought him being in the top half of the cast wasn't really debatable...

I said "People who doubt he's a strong contender for top 10" which he most certainly is. His tools have almost stayed the exact same since day 1, and basically all of his bad MU's have had nerfs throughout the game's life.

 

[Cursa]

Dink released a tier list which is really hard to argue with simply because of how huge his tiers are, but it's there for those of you who are interested.

All I can really argue against is that Fate isn't in the same tier as the turtles, Joker, Enchantress, and Deadshot

 

[PND OmegaK]

Is there really anyone out there saying that Flash is a bad character? I'd have thought him being in the top half of the cast wasn't really debatable...

Flash players

 

[xInfra Deadx]

Flash players

They are the worst.

 

[wsj515]

Still waiting on an explanation for why Superman beats Black Adam. Would also love an explanation for how Adam beats Grodd.

 

[Insomniac FGC]

Still waiting on an explanation for why Superman beats Black Adam. Would also love an explanation for how Adam beats Grodd.

We'll get back to you on Superman vs Black Adam. Do you have an explanation for why you believe Black Adam goes 5-5 against Grodd?

 

[God Confirm]

We'll get back to you on Superman vs Black Adam. Do you have an explanation for why you believe Black Adam goes 5-5 against Grodd?

do you have an explanation for why he doesn't? You're the one who made a thread telling everyone that you've come to the conclusion it's a 6-4, did you just pull that number out of a hat lol?

 

[wsj515]

At this point this whole thing is a farce. The only real matchup discussion that is happening in this thread is from people unaffiliated with this list, so I'd love to hear what any of other Superman/Grodd players think.