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Red Hood's 3,2,3 Oki Is Dead – Edge Intensifies

Greetings, my fellows. In the I2 patch that landed this month of February, Red Hood received an adjustment: 3,2,3 is no longer a hard knockdown.

The adjustment to the string's Hard Knockdown (HKD) property was part of a blanket change across multiple characters. Characters like Captain Cold, Darkseid, Brainiac and more have lost at least one HKD. Some may have gotten off with a scratch or a bruise, but Red Hood has lost an essential part of his toolset. 3,2,3 being an HKD was critical to him as an okizeme-based character, so RH has suffered a negative impact to the one area he truly shined in. This is rather saddening, especially since he is already one of the most technical and knowledge-intensive fighters to use in Injustice 2, and he has no outstanding characteristics outside of his oki game and perhaps his chip damage; (which happens to leave him at a fundamental disadvantage in all but one situation that the opponent can backdash to negate.)

Over the past eight months, a few Hoodlums have spent hours upon hours of training, match-up labbing and note-taking with RH and his HKD oki. The change to the HKD has made the string obsolete for oki against those who know to tech roll, and all the work that was put into the character's post-3,2,3 knockdown oki has effectively gone to waste. His only remaining HKD is 1,1,2, but it does not adequately replace the purpose of 3,2,3 and the meterless oki it once granted. When 1,1,2 is used raw and canceled into Mine, his 9-frame F2 can barely beat out 14-frame non-invincible wakeups like Deadshot's Wrist Cannon, and when a proper combo is ended with the string, he cannot do anything except block.

Without the 3,2,3 HKD, alternative and cancel-able enders (like F2,3) are better for Mine oki at this point. However, now that tech rolling is an option for the opponent, a wider array of possibilities are present for the RH player to consider. This puts a significant dent in RH's oki potential; which, again, is the only area he truly excelled at. He is weaker in other aspects to make up for his oki: his defense is bad, his damage output is lower than average, his rushdown is sub-par, his zoning is not designed to keep the opponent at bay. Red Hood was balanced around the Mines and the oki they brought, but now his setups are no longer the threat they once were. He has a good neutral game, but what does that matter if he is not great anywhere else?

It is also unhappy to note that he was not given anything to compensate for this loss. I believe it is plausible that this change to Red Hood could not have been foreseen by the elder gods at NRS, because plenty of HKDs were carpet bombed and numerous characters were affected, besides Atrocitus; who happened to be in his underground cabin, drinking tea and snuggling up with Dex-Starr during the event.

Whatever book Atrocitus may have been reading in his cabin, many hours of labbing with Red Hood over the course of eight months were thrown out the window by the loss of the HKD. Although Red Hoodlums may try to accommodate the change, that is still an upsetting outcome. All other changes to RH have been reasonable, but this one is quite questionable. He is a character who has been toned down patch after patch and has barely been relevant in tournaments for the last three months.

My fellow Hoodlums, please lend your strength as we compliment Paulo's nonchalance when he appears on the Watchtower streams. Mr. Paulo, you make me laugh, so it would be greatly appreciated if you gave Red Hood his HKD back or redesigned the character's gameplan to something not as problematic to balance as a setup character, if you so please. Thank you.

Comments, questions and assertions pertaining to Red Hood and his 3,2,3 HKD may be posted here. If anyone wishes to share alternative strategies, that would be nice as well. This thread was made to bring attention to the unpleasant nerfing of Injustice 2's Lord of Edge.
 
This is a good example of how NRS doesn't know how to balance the game. They just randomly implement a new universal rule/buff/nerf into the game, thinking that it will affect every character equally. Think of how they removed armored launchers in MKX. But no, many characters get hurt much more by some others
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I WILL EAT THIS GAME
as someone who's literally loved Red Hood since Day One but has never fully embraced him because i knew he'd one day be nerfed to absolute shit, here we are...
 

Jinxx

9 Lives
Agree, they seriously need to give him his 323 oki back. I think we should all make sure Paulo is acknowledged by this
 

Malec

Noob
Ok so I bought injustice 2 Legendary edition haven't played injustice 2 until now. Coming from an injustice 1 Lex Luthor background Red Hood with his bomb mixups seems to be the most interesting character to me. So it seems like tym forum missing a lot of information. Is everything on discord now? Or is the game just dead.
So 323 is dead, I got that, but what is the alternative now?
I am really interested in Red Hood, he got nerfed like every patch, was the last nerf to much?
 

Crusty

Retired forever; don’t ask for games.
Ok so I bought injustice 2 Legendary edition haven't played injustice 2 until now. Coming from an injustice 1 Lex Luthor background Red Hood with his bomb mixups seems to be the most interesting character to me. So it seems like tym forum missing a lot of information. Is everything on discord now? Or is the game just dead.
So 323 is dead, I got that, but what is the alternative now?
I am really interested in Red Hood, he got nerfed like every patch, was the last nerf to much?
The alternative is to end your combos early to get a setup going. Techrolling seems to be a non-issue when it comes to his oki but at the end of the day, the nerf didn't need to happen.

Everything important is on discord now for Red Hood. Not because I hate tym, but it is just truly inconvenient to talk about a character like RH when it comes to looking at ever intricacy and nuance for every character as well every player tendency. In short, the tym server slows tf down when I try to type something long for some strange reason. On top of that, my busy schedule make it inconvenient to converse via tym. Discord is much more real time. I plan on posting stuff when I graduate next month, but it's worth noting that I've very sketch of posting anything about the character on the forums up until the last patch.

I can give you the channel if you pm me but tym is not the place to talk about the character imo.
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
This is a good example of how NRS doesn't know how to balance the game. They just randomly implement a new universal rule/buff/nerf into the game, thinking that it will affect every character equally. Think of how they removed armored launchers in MKX. But no, many characters get hurt much more by some others
Sounds like confirmation bias
 

Malec

Noob
I can give you the channel if you pm me but tym is not the place to talk about the character imo.
Thx for the quick reply and like all the work you have done for rh in general. Pm you where? Do you mean discord? To be honest I am a total noob, I used it like twice a couple of years ago as an TeamSpeak alternative But I really would like to join in. Playing fighting games since I can remember and I always trying to get the best out of my character.
 

Crusty

Retired forever; don’t ask for games.
Thx for the quick reply and like all the work you have done for rh in general. Pm you where? Do you mean discord? To be honest I am a total noob, I used it like twice a couple of years ago as an TeamSpeak alternative But I really would like to join in. Playing fighting games since I can remember and I always trying to get the best out of my character.
Pm me on here to get the link. It's pretty straightforward
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
Tbh taking 323's HKD was a pretty random decision for a character that was pretty balanced to begin with.
Well I think it was less them trying to nerf Red Hood and more them fixing a bug that had that consequence. But this is one example out of a plethora of balance changes that don't fit Doge's take.
 

Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
Well I think it was less them trying to nerf Red Hood and more them fixing a bug that had that consequence. But this is one example out of a plethora of balance changes that don't fit Doge's take.
What was bug in question?
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
What was bug in question?
It's in the February notes, OP linked it.
  • Fixed a bug causing several attacks with a tumble away reaction to sometimes be a hard knockdown against an airborne opponent but always allow a roll against a grounded opponent.
Then it lists off the knockdowns that will never allow a roll and the ones that will always allow roll. So the basic idea is that the mechanic of some knockdowns being a hard knockdown in the air but not on the ground was a bug. I don't think most did much to affect balance but Red Hood apparently was not that lucky.
 

Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
It's in the February notes, OP linked it.
  • Fixed a bug causing several attacks with a tumble away reaction to sometimes be a hard knockdown against an airborne opponent but always allow a roll against a grounded opponent.
Then it lists off the knockdowns that will never allow a roll and the ones that will always allow roll. So the basic idea is that the mechanic of some knockdowns being a hard knockdown in the air but not on the ground was a bug. I don't think most did much to affect balance but Red Hood apparently was not that lucky.
Makes more sense now. Kind of a silly accidental nerf though, probably would've been better to just always make it a HKD but it is what it is I guess.
 

Crusty

Retired forever; don’t ask for games.
This "bug" existed since July and this "accident" caused hours of labbing to be thrown out the window.
 

Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
This "bug" existed since July and this "accident" caused hours of labbing to be thrown out the window.
Well they did what they set out to accomplish.

It just had unintended balance effects
 

Crusty

Retired forever; don’t ask for games.
Well they did what they set out to accomplish.

It just had unintended balance effects
Given their track record, its very out of the blue and arbitrary. They've always dismissed things as bugs simply because they don't take responsibility of such things AND while their balance has gotten better, they still suck at it in areas.
 

Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
Given their track record, its very out of the blue and arbitrary. They've always dismissed things as bugs simply because they don't take responsibility of such things AND while their balance has gotten better, they still suck at it in areas.
To be fair to them they got the changes they wanted about 98% right. The only ones that really mattered were RH's and Captain Cold's
 

Crusty

Retired forever; don’t ask for games.
To be fair to them they got the changes they wanted about 98% right. The only ones that really mattered were RH's and Captain Cold's
My problem isn't the change itself, but the whole rationale behind it or lack thereof. If something was a "bug" why didn't they patch it during the game's infancy. Changes like these happen for the sake of happening with no basis or even common sense applied to it and they are inconsiderate of the fact that not every character functions the same.
 

Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
My problem isn't the change itself, but the whole rationale behind it or lack thereof. If something was a "bug" why didn't they patch it during the game's infancy.
Idk. Maybe because it was a pretty minor bug and just changed it now for consistencies sake.

they are inconsiderate of the fact that not every character functions the same.
NRS doesn't have a deep understanding of their characters so they occasionally make changes that don't make sense. Grodd is probably the greatest example of this in the game imo.
 

Crusty

Retired forever; don’t ask for games.
Idk. Maybe because it was a pretty minor bug and just changed it now for consistencies sake.
Or it wasn't a bug. You really expect me to believe
1) they'd overlook this considering people like Dizzy and 16 Bit are on the and deliberately left CW's b3 the same pretty much. You can't tell me nobody knew wtf was going on during QA testing and how this would affect the game state
2) this is an issue of consistency when NRS has been anything but consistent throughout their games in terms of balance?
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
They only have so much time they can spend fixing bugs and there's practical reasons that go into it. Maybe they didn't prioritize it over other issues or something like DLC testing, maybe they weren't fully aware of the bug, maybe they wanted to fix it but didn't know how, etc. It's not a conspiracy, if it was working as intended then they never would have changed it.

Game development is very complex and they have to pick and choose where their resources go into.

This is what you get for all this secret discord tech :DOGE
 

Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
Or it wasn't a bug. You really expect me to believe
1) they'd overlook this considering people like Dizzy and 16 Bit are on the and deliberately left CW's b3 the same pretty much. You can't tell me nobody knew wtf was going on during QA testing and how this would affect the game state
2) this is an issue of consistency when NRS has been anything but consistent throughout their games in terms of balance?
Well if I'm reading correctly because my head currently hurts a little...

1.) I'd probably expect that no one knew what was going on. Like look at the other characters throughout this games' life and how they fucked them. Like someone had to literally go like "Yeah, Grodd's stampede cancels are no longer plus like we wanted them to be" or "Yeah, Deadshot's nerfs make him a balanced character"
CW's actually probably an example of the opposite, they nerfed her pretty well imo.

2.) Maybe NRS is just trying to become more consistent, at least for within IJ2? Like, characters randomly getting HDK's and randomly not getting them is preetttyyy inconsistent where it probably shouldn't be. The changes made sense and there was a reason for them being done.