I Sense Your Dread- Scarecrow Match Up Discussion

[Hellz HitmaN]

I disagree with the following:

Batman and Deadshot - These are definitely bad MU’s but I don’t think Crow honestly has any 7-3’s as of now. Although these are definitely two of his worst.

Aquaman - Absolutely a 5-5. Aquaman isn’t good enough anymore to wreck Crow. Our footsies are better overall and we outdamage him by a lot.

Starfire - 4-6 at worst once again. Zoning is just annoying as hell with Crow.

Sub Zero - Really don’t get this one. We are prob Sub’s #1 worst MU because we don’t have to give a single fuck about clone.

Rest is pretty good. (Also Manta definitely feels like a 6-4.)

Batman, Deadshot, and Arrow are without a doubt 3-7, imo. They are abysmal matchups. Arrow avoids you and zones you to death.

Deadshot will zone you to death. By the time you get him to the corner, you will likely have lost lots of health and will be massively down in meter.

Batman is just horrible in every way - zoning and trait bat pressure. You will spend 75 percent of the match blocking pressure and ducking zoning.

Sub Zero is a bad matchup. Just because we have a few normals that go thru the clone does not mean we don't give a single fuck about it. We definitely have to give fucks. It slows down our pressure immensely and forces us to play Sub's game

 

[Hellz HitmaN]

I mostly agree (hopefully edits are obvious). I would say that Starfire is basically Deadshot Lite in most respects to how to approach her. She hits harder and is more mobile but her projectile game isn't as good her mixup game pales in comparison to his.

Fighting Wonder Woman sucks but it isn't as bad as dealing with the matchups listed a 3-7s.

That said, I might put Red Hood as being a worse matchup than Green Arrow as the former shares many of the projectile issues that make the latter problematic while also being substantially more mobile.

I also think that Firestorm may be a bit worse than advertised as Scarecrows teleport makes him more susceptible to some of Firestorms tricks than other characters.

I think there is hope against Red Hood if you are patient. You will eventually be able to pressure him. His lunge wakeup can be stuffed with 1,1. He is in trouble if we are in his face.

Arrow is worse because he can always savage blast away from us. We can try to make a hard read if we are in range with an f3. But he can always switch it up and go with his slide and spinner wakeups

 

[SnowboardRX]

Sub Zero is a bad matchup. Just because we have a few normals that go thru the clone does not mean we don't give a single fuck about it. We definitely have to give fucks. It slows down our pressure immensely and forces us to play Sub's game

Sub is definitely not a bad matchup. Doesn't slow down my game at all. Not only can you use his normals but Fear-ferno will also get rid of that thing. If he thinks he can come in after FF, you throw in the MB version to catch him off guard. IMO, this matchup is 5-5 at worst. Never have any issues with sub players.

 

[Knoterror]

What the hell is this Sub is a bad matchup business? It's a great matchup for Crow. I feel comfortable as hell in it.

You can play the long range game very easily. With fearwaves, you can absorb ice balls and thrown clones on reaction at practically any distance. Once you take that away, Sub takes huge ass risks like random slides and telegraphed jump-ins.

 

[Ragnarök Tyr]

The only time Sub Zero will pose that much of a threat is if/when he can box you into the corner. Then it becomes a bit of a harder match up but that's true for most characters against him.

The advantage is that in the neutral Scarecrow has nothing to be afraid of against Sub Zero. Tossed clones are an easy DB2 to nullify which grants a small bit of meter. Stationary clones aren't much of an issue since F2, 22, F3, B3, D3, the last hit of F133 & Bf1 wll all go through clone.

Reversal wise if Scarecrow gets Sub Zero in the corner the match is all but over since a blocked slide will kill him and he's got no other scary reversals to speak of.
=======

Deadshot & Batman to me feel like 6-4 Match Ups. They have the advantage in the neutral with the meter gain, however if Crow can get either into the corner his buttons and pressure game can pose a bit of an issue. I haven't seen/felt any real 7-3 match up for the character yet. At worst everything gets better based on positioning.

Even as far as GA. The fact Crow can 123 through his slide wake up, or neutral duck hurricane bow means if he gets the knockdown, GA has to take a big risk in getting up, or hold the pressure/mix up.

 

[GJX7]

I had a long set with a good Superman today, and honestly I think the matchup is free, I would put it at a 6 - 4 but it's more like a 6.5 - 3.5.

His zoning is poor. You can jump forward over straight laser and grounded sweeping laser; Superman's air sweeping laser is a bit tougher to jump over so I would recommend blocking and then forward dashing, it doesn't take much effort to get in at all.

Also, Scarecrow wins the footsie game, I would stay within your F2 range but just out of Superman's F2 range. You can whiff punish on reaction and Scarecrow can get his pressure going much further away than Superman can.

On that note, Superman can't deal with Crow's pressure, his back dash isn't great; his fastest button is 7f; and all of his wakeups can be beaten out with D1xxDB2 as all of them are highs.

Lastly, Crow has an easy time with Superman's pressure, you can D1 after F23xx4 and utilise 11 or 123 after Ice Breath.

All in all I think it's one of Scarecrow's easiest matchups.

 

[foxof42]

I had a long set with a good Superman today, and honestly I think the matchup is free, I would put it at a 6 - 4 but it's more like a 6.5 - 3.5.

His zoning is poor. You can jump forward over straight laser and grounded sweeping laser; Superman's air sweeping laser is a bit tougher to jump over so I would recommend blocking and then forward dashing, it doesn't take much effort to get in at all.

Also, Scarecrow wins the footsie game, I would stay within your F2 range but just out of Superman's F2 range. You can whiff punish on reaction and Scarecrow can get his pressure going much further away than Superman can.

On that note, Superman can't deal with Crow's pressure, his back dash isn't great; his fastest button is 7f; and all of his wakeups can be beaten out with D1xxDB2 as all of them are highs.

Lastly, Crow has an easy time with Superman's pressure, you can D1 after F23xx4 and utilise 11 or 123 after Ice Breath.

All in all I think it's one of Scarecrow's easiest matchups.

I also think it's good for Crow but if the Superman player is good, they won't be spamming F23 after breath. They'll shimmy, and 11 will get punished. It's still a big threat. Knicks showed me that the hard way. :/

 

[GJX7]

I need some help with the Harley MU, it feels like a 4 - 6 to me. I'm having a lot of trouble getting in

 

[foxof42]

I need some help with the Harley MU, it feels like a 4 - 6 to me. I'm having a lot of trouble getting in

She gives you a lot to respect. While you can do things like fear wave or MB F3 through the dogs - or even teleport, yeesh - the best option is just to take the chip and not get opened up. Be aware of the range of her overhead guns so you don't get punished for duck walking.

Beyond that, most of the neutral is played in the air. If they like to jump back for overhead guns (sorry I don't know the move name), jump in 2 will make them rethink that. Mostly what I've run across is walking back waiting to instant jump 2 when they see your jump. You can bait this by jumping into air gas blast. Or, you can walk them into that sweet F2 range and check them.

Always be ready to d2 and always stay advancing. If you read a mid-range backdash, you can catch some off guard by completing f133 for the long range overhead.

Your goal is the corner where most of Scarecrow's matchups turn around. After a cmd grab ender, standing 3 checks all wakeups, jump out attempts, etc. and forces them to play your game. If they aren't conditioned, I would go ahead and stand 3-db1 because you'll probably get it unless they're a huge fan of delaying their wakeup.

If you stand 3 and they delay, you could try for a d2-cmd grab to check a jump out or armor. If they just want to press buttons, though, they'll beat you out. Make the read. And on that note, you can also read a delay and go for a meaty 123 to check with plus frames after they're conditioned.

 

[Hellz HitmaN]

I had a long set with a good Superman today, and honestly I think the matchup is free, I would put it at a 6 - 4 but it's more like a 6.5 - 3.5.

His zoning is poor. You can jump forward over straight laser and grounded sweeping laser; Superman's air sweeping laser is a bit tougher to jump over so I would recommend blocking and then forward dashing, it doesn't take much effort to get in at all.

Also, Scarecrow wins the footsie game, I would stay within your F2 range but just out of Superman's F2 range. You can whiff punish on reaction and Scarecrow can get his pressure going much further away than Superman can.

On that note, Superman can't deal with Crow's pressure, his back dash isn't great; his fastest button is 7f; and all of his wakeups can be beaten out with D1xxDB2 as all of them are highs.

Lastly, Crow has an easy time with Superman's pressure, you can D1 after F23xx4 and utilise 11 or 123 after Ice Breath.

All in all I think it's one of Scarecrow's easiest matchups.

Agree with mostly everything you said except about his zoning being poor. I don't find that to be case. If he is mixing up air lasers, forward lasers, and superman punch, it seems very annoying to get in. If a Superman knows to zone the whole match, I find this a 5-5 or even in his favor

 

[GJX7]

Agree with mostly everything you said except about his zoning being poor. I don't find that to be case. If he is mixing up air lasers, forward lasers, and superman punch, it seems very annoying to get in. If a Superman knows to zone the whole match, I find this a 5-5 or even in his favor

I don't think you're jumping enough, keep looking at Superman, you can jump forward when you see the startup animation of either ground laser. And air sweeping laser is very minus on block and you get a completely safe dash in

 

[SnowboardRX]

I don't think you're jumping enough, keep looking at Superman, you can jump forward when you see the startup animation of either ground laser. And air sweeping laser is very minus on block and you get a completely safe dash in

A good Superman who catches on to you jumping in will start to throw in j1's into you and beat your jump-ins every time due to those crazy active frames/jumping hit-box Supes has with it.

 

[GJX7]

A good Superman who catches on to you jumping in will start to throw in j1's into you and beat your jump-ins every time due to those crazy active frames/jumping hit-box Supes has with it.

That's why you're jumping when you see the laser animation, not just jumping on a read

 

[foxof42]

Not saying jump in raw. But when you jump in raw, gas blast that instant J2 you get in response to the corner lol. Feel out your opponent and if you think they don't suck, just do it and let them hang themselves. 90% of the time, works every time.

 

[SnowboardRX]

That's why you're jumping when you see the laser animation, not just jumping on a read

That's not what I'm saying, though. I'm saying that a good Supes won't always be doing that. He'll catch on that you're jumping in and start j1 in on you when you think he's going to do a jump laser.

 

[That Legion]

Fellas, I gotta ask: How much do you guys use stagger pressure in the corner?

 

[foxof42]

Fellas, I gotta ask: How much do you guys use stagger pressure in the corner?

Probably more than is safe to lol. But it depends on the range of the opponents' normals. Sometimes I'll do a max range b2 into d2-db3 which can be extended meterlessly in the corner. Because you know, it's only... *gulp* -8. I also stagger b12 into d1 until I'm sure my opponent is conditioned to try to interrupt and then b12-MBdb2. There's also standing 2 into 123 or d1 which is most effective if you're enforcing your plus frames with 22 instead of d1. Finally, 11 is an awful stagger into d1 but if you know your opponent is mashy, it is very useful to bait an opponent's d1 or d2 and then punish yourself. You can also end the string once you have them conditioned. Unlike b12-1+3, a poke is less likely to interrupt. Nothing like going for the big risk of ending an unsafe string only to get punished before you complete it.

So yeah, mix in your normals beyond d1 especially in the corner before you go for your plus frames and you might be pleasantly surprised with the amount of conditioning you can dish out. (And the amount of people still getting hit with b2213!) Just be aware of the big gaps and cover them when necessary.

 

[That Legion]

Probably more than is safe to lol. But it depends on the range of the opponents' normals. Sometimes I'll do a max range b2 into d2-db3 which can be extended meterlessly in the corner. Because you know, it's only... *gulp* -8. I also stagger b12 into d1 until I'm sure my opponent is conditioned to try to interrupt and then b12-MBdb2. There's also standing 2 into 123 or d1 which is most effective if you're enforcing your plus frames with 22 instead of d1. Finally, 11 is an awful stagger into d1 but if you know your opponent is mashy, it is very useful to bait an opponent's d1 or d2 and then punish yourself. You can also end the string once you have them conditioned. Unlike b12-1+3, a poke is less likely to interrupt. Nothing like going for the big risk of ending an unsafe string only to get punished before you complete it.

So yeah, mix in your normals beyond d1 especially in the corner before you go for your plus frames and you might be pleasantly surprised with the amount of conditioning you can dish out. (And the amount of people still getting hit with b2213!) Just be aware of the big gaps and cover them when necessary.

Yup. That pretty much sums up everything. Only other thing is that, with enough conditioning, the F2 move by itself is a surprisingly good stagger tool. You can also almost always get away with a second F2 to close the gap even more (not in corner) when you hit them with the tip of the hook.

 

[Paul the Octopus]

Can you react to projectiles with Scarecrow’s teleport post-patch, or is it too slow and you still have to guess (rather than see the projectile and react)?

 

[Nobus3r1]

Can you react to projectiles with Scarecrow’s teleport post-patch, or is it too slow and you still have to guess (rather than see the projectile and react)?

That's something that will probably require more hands on testing. For reference the current version of Panic-Port starts up in 21f and has 29f recovery while the new version has 14f of startup and 27f of recovery while gaining projectile immunity on 6f+. The point of reference that I would look at is what projectiles are easy to nullify with Fear-ferno as it's currently only 2f faster than the new Pani-Port and then see what the recovery is on those to see if one were to teleport on reaction if it would actually matter. I feel like they really undersold on the Watchtower stream how much faster the startup was.

 

[GJX7]

Can you react to projectiles with Scarecrow’s teleport post-patch, or is it too slow and you still have to guess (rather than see the projectile and react)?

It's only 2 frames slower than Scorpions teleport... with invisibility frames, so yeah, you will be able to react to projectiles

 

[foxof42]

It's got invisibility frames AND invincibility frames lol

 

[Hellz HitmaN]

I play on Xbox and the teleport still gets punished quite a bit. If your opponent senses your desperation, they will certainly punish your teleport. It can be reacted to if they are ready for it - if that makes sense.

As for reacting to their projectile, it depends on their projectile and its recovery. Often times, you will successfully evade getting hit by their projectile (which wouldn't have happened pre-patch), but still will have to block after your teleport.

I played a Superman yesterday and we both had a pixel of health after a clash. I saw he was going to air laser and teleported and it evaded the laser. After the teleport I hit him with a jump 3, winning the match.

Evading the laser with the teleport would certainly not have happened before the patch.

 

[Hellz HitmaN]

The Batman matchup is still awful. Not much has changed. I think it could still be a 3-7. He still does whatever he wants without worry.

Because he has trait bats available less often, I've found that more Batmans will simply choose to zone you most of the match. Them building less meter doesn't seem to be too much of an issue in this matchup.

Teleporting as he throws the batarang also doesn't seem to work. Because you reverse their inputs, they will input another batarang as you teleport, but will get a back 2 to come out instead, punishing your teleport. An inadvertent option select.

Maybe one of you guys will find some form of hope in this matchup and help me out. Until then, it's back to Aquaman

 

[GJX7]

The Batman matchup is still awful. Not much has changed. I think it could still be a 3-7. He still does whatever he wants without worry.

Because he has trait bats available less often, I've found that more Batmans will simply choose to zone you most of the match. Them building less meter doesn't seem to be too much of an issue in this matchup.

Teleporting as he throws the batarang also doesn't seem to work. Because you reverse their inputs, they will input another batarang as you teleport, but will get a back 2 to come out instead, punishing your teleport. An inadvertent option select.

Maybe one of you guys will find some form of hope in this matchup and help me out. Until then, it's back to Aquaman

If they're dumb you can fully punish straight grapple now