Black Manta's place in the meta

[ATP2014]

Just wanted to provide my opinion on Black Manta with a month's worth of experience. There is almost 0 tournament footage, and he doesn't seem to have any dedicated mains among the top players, so all of this comes from my own experience.

He is a great footsie character that can fight almost everyone. However, once he lands a hit, he has no way to fully take over a match. No launching 50/50s, no overwhelming pressure, no ridiculous chip, no real damage and virtually no zoning.

Overall, a solid mid tier who does best against heavy rushdown (Flash, Canary, Cheetah). He doesn't seem to have any dominant winning match ups, so in the current counter-pick meta, he doesn't get a lot of play time.

Agree? Disagree?

Also @STORMS @SneakyTortoise @CrazyFingers when are we getting the Fighter Pack 2 icons on the forum front page? Pretty unwieldy right now to go through multiple hoops.

 

[Skedar70]

I think he sucks. I haven't played any good ones and haven't seen any dirty tech from him. I don't see his gameplan. As you said he has nothing. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[ATP2014]

To be fair, there is viable tech for Manta. @REO showed the instant air Shark Attack and instant float plus frames. And @Red Raptor has the float conditioning video. But considering that neither of these is really game-changing, I rarely use them in my own matches due to some higher execution stuff.

 

[Brain-main]

Yeh agreed.
I like the character, but there is nothing WOW about him that would make you pick him in a tournament setting.

In saying that though, he is a rather safe character, leaving little openings.
He is good at harrassing impatient players.

Definitely solid mid tier.

 

[TheGangstaFace]

You’d think Manta does Red Hood, Aquaman, Deadshot chip from the upplayers and that he builds as much meter just as easy

 

[JBeezYBabY]

He was definitely fun to play at first, but that hype died down. He certaintly needs some kind of buff to make him more viable. Maybe a damage buff perhaps ?Question mark? Mid tier, sure. But later down the road, people will stop even thinking this character exists.

 

[Snibbor]

I've been playing him since release and I agree that he's a very average character. He doesn't seem to lose a lot of matchups, but doesn't really win many either. His fast walk speed and his tele make him difficult to zone, which is nice, but even once he gets in it seems difficult to open your opponent up.
Another thing is that his fastest comboable mid (aside from d2) is his f2 which is 17 frames. S2, and s21 don't link into tele or missile, which is kinda crap imo but other than that he seems like a good, but honest character.

Edit: I derped and forgot s3

 

[Brain-main]

I've been playing him since release and I agree that he's a very average character. He doesn't seem to lose a lot of matchups, but doesn't really win many either. His fast walk speed and his tele make him difficult to zone, which is nice, but even once he gets in it seems difficult to open your opponent up.
Another thing is that his fastest comboable mid (aside from d2) is his f2 which is 17 frames. S2, and s21 don't link into tele or missile, which is kinda crap imo but other than that he seems like a good, but honest character.

2d3 combos doesn't it?

 

[Snibbor]

2d3 combos doesn't it?

Yea you right. And s3 does too

I just really like how 21 looks and wish it was useful lol

 

[ATP2014]

Fixing the teleport so that he doesn't get stuffed while coming out of the ground would be the only change I suggest.

Manta toolset is fine imo, he just doesn't stand out from the rest of the cast. I would rather wait and see what happens to the current top/high tier before asking for buffs.

 

[JBeezYBabY]

His teleport getting caught by Sub Zero's ice clone is frickin' HI-LAR-I-OUS!

I wonder if Captain Cold's mb Ice puddle catches Manta's teleport too....Hmmmmm....*thinks*....

 

[CapedBaldy]

I've been maining him since release and I agree with much of what's being said here. I think Manta is a solid bait and punish character. His float cancels are definitely his meta, but there are some execution barriers. Even if you do get the float pressure down, a smart opponent always has a way out.

IMO he is a fun character and lends himself to creativity more than anyone else in the roster. I'm too much of a pleb to put him on a tier list, but solid mid tier sounds about right. Not getting stuffed out teleport would be a godsend!

 

[EntropicByDesign]

Sigh.

Manta Manta Manta.

First, I think he's middle of the pack. He isn't bad, but he isn't good.. one of his issues is he doesn't really do anything particularly well except look cool and walk fast. I love how responsive he feels to play, I really do, but other than that he just comes across 'meh' in a lot of ways.. a lot of his stuff being based on conditioning makes him kinda hit or miss in short sets too, you often don't have time to establish your options properly and you aren't playing mind games, you're just playing guessing games.

To me he doesn't have anything that makes him really stand out. No amazingly fun or powerful 'thing' that makes him really shine.. he has lots of decent stuff, but part of making a character fun, and powerful (powerful does not mean high tier) is giving them something like that. He has no real mix, great + frames off rockets if anyone let's you use them - and it's not super likely you get too a on, his trait has neat applications for sure, but beetle and SG float silliness is stronger, more responsive, probably deeper and more fun in general, most of his kit is *slow*, his teleport is stuffed by characters doing things in different games (I was watching sfv on stream and playing Manta the other day and Ken dp'd my tele- true story) and the MB version is a DUCKABLE OH, and on and on. His chip and meterbuild aren't bad, but again they just aren't anything special or character defining.

I feel like he's a decent character that's missing a gimmick to make him a great character. A character defining thing.. SG had b123, Supes f23, Swamp Thing is green?, Flash has terrifying mixy/resety shenanigans, Beetle has ludicrous MB/safety/FC mixy shit, Batman has bats and J2, etc.

I don't know what he needs to make him really stand out. An oppressively fast mid strings maybe, or cut down rocket + frames to something less absurd but give us an OH that makes just crouch blocking the whole time less appealing.

It's tricky, Manta, with his dumb-great dashes, POTENTIAL for + pressure with rockets and wonderful walk speed could very easily be broken, and I don't want that, but I do want a character that feels defined and fun to play. Currently the only *real* fun I have on him his walking and dashing around cause it's so damn fluid.

 

[kcd117]

I think he is very solid. His best trait is that he doesn't have a hard time dealing with anything, and his gameplan doesn't change a too much depending on the matchups. I don't think he gets fundamentaly beaten by any other character, which makes me think that with time he might not have a single losing matchups, even tho most of it are gonna be 5-5.

 

[Marinjuana]

I agree that he doesn't have anything that dramatically makes you go "damn that's dirty" but float allows for some nice resets,(most notably off his low which can be hit confirmed) some great plus frames and it works really well as an anti wakeup tool.(Things like reversing inputs, avoiding and punishing.) There's just some wonkiness to his float but I think it provides him with some nuanced cheap stuff that he needs to hang.

 

[ATP2014]

Some good points made about Manta not really having an identity. Even characters that can be argued to be lower tier (Captain Cold, Grodd, Poison Ivy) have unique moves/play styles that allow them to be useful in some match ups.

 

[Skedar70]

Some good points made about Manta not really having an identity. Even characters that can be argued to be lower tier (Captain Cold, Grodd, Poison Ivy) have unique moves/play styles that allow them to be useful in some match ups.

I don't believe any of those characters you mentioned are at a lower tier than Manta. I see dirt in all of them. I even think Swamp thing is better than him.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I don't believe any of those characters you mentioned are at a lower tier than Manta. I see dirt in all of them. I even think Swamp thing is better than him.

The character with the most dirt isn't always the best. Ninjustsu Scorpion had nothing dirty going on, but he was definitely better than a character like Cyrax who had dirt but nothing else

 

[dribirut]

imo he is one of the worst characters in the game.

Awesome character design and a lot of fun to play but just doesnt have the tools

His float pressure is extremely gimmicky. It opens you up for an easy combo and the only thing you can really get out of it is a air normal into float cancel for minimal plus frames where you can only get a d1 out..

Also his damage is very bad for a character that has zero mixups. He should at least get subzero raiden damage

Imo without a doubt bottom 10. Probably bottom 5

 

[AkioOf100]

He has no way to open anybody up. If you get hit it's because you fked up. Not because of 50/50s or any type of real mix.

 

[kcd117]

Low tier lol that's extreme downplay.
Let's be honest here, have you guys found a character that really gives him trouble? Bc I have only fought 2 matchups that can possibly be bad, and even then I doubt they are. He has tools to deal with everything imo. He is not gonna body anyone but he doesn't get bodied by anyone.

 

[CrazyFingers]

If you're complaining about opening people up, you ain't throwing enough. it's a pretty big part of his gameplan (adds to his stagger game) something to keep em thinking. And when you actually land the hit your oki is pretty damn good. He's a defensive neutral character with good chip. He can make meterless manta ray safe dependent on spacing which means he's building tons of meter. People don't say "Aquaman is bad cuz no 50/50's" it's the same basic idea only Manta has better oki and mobility to compensate for the lack of tentacle. His counter zoning is good, he's got good buttons, good AAs, a STUPID jump in normal in J3, good chip, good meterbuild. Idk what else you'd want in a character like this.

TL;DR
Apparently defensive=bad unless you're aquaman.

 

[Snibbor]

He has no way to open anybody up. If you get hit it's because you fked up. Not because of 50/50s or any type of real mix.

Yeah but he doesn't necessarily need a mix in the OH/Low sense to be effective. I think that Manta is fine, he lacks the dirt that a lot of the characters in this game have but he's solid. Overall a very safe character, great range on his normals, not great but not bad damage, and nobody can really dominate him in a MU because he has an option for nearly any situation. One change I would want to see if his throw to be given a little more range, it is almost usless having the range that it currently has, and his teleport not being stuffed so easily as others have said, but any buffs other than that would be unnecessary.

 

[Snibbor]

If you're complaining about opening people up, you ain't throwing enough. it's a pretty big part of his gameplan (adds to his stagger game) something to keep em thinking. And when you actually land the hit your oki is pretty damn good. He's a defensive neutral character with good chip. He can make meterless manta ray safe dependent on spacing which means he's building tons of meter. People don't say "Aquaman is bad cuz no 50/50's" it's the same basic idea only Manta has better oki and mobility to compensate for the lack of tentacle. His counter zoning is good, he's got good buttons, good AAs, a STUPID jump in normal in J3, good chip, good meterbuild. Idk what else you'd want in a character like this.

TL;DR
Apparently defensive=bad unless you're aquaman.

His throw has awful range tho. Like after a f2 stagger, some chars will literally just walk out of throw range and it'll whiff in their face

 

[AkioOf100]

If you're complaining about opening people up, you ain't throwing enough. it's a pretty big part of his gameplan (adds to his stagger game) something to keep em thinking. And when you actually land the hit your oki is pretty damn good. He's a defensive neutral character with good chip. He can make meterless manta ray safe dependent on spacing which means he's building tons of meter. People don't say "Aquaman is bad cuz no 50/50's" it's the same basic idea only Manta has better oki and mobility to compensate for the lack of tentacle. His counter zoning is good, he's got good buttons, good AAs, a STUPID jump in normal in J3, good chip, good meterbuild. Idk what else you'd want in a character like this.

TL;DR
Apparently defensive=bad unless you're aquaman.

Yikes I wasn't really trying to start a war. I'm just saying opening up your opponent isn't really a thing with him unless they mess up. And I'm not saying that makes him a bad character or anything. I agree, throwing is a really good way to open your opponent up, a universal mixup. Great oki too. All agreed. I just would like to see him be able to open up his opponent.

He plays very different from a lot of characters in the game, not saying that's bad (again), just saying he's a bit too fair for me.