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The Zoning Academy (Injustice 2 Edition)

gibster13

A fan of fans
Red Hood thoughts,

@General M2Dave Ty btw Dave.

His straight shuriken (BF2) is by far his best tool for fullscreen.
Pros- Fairly quick
Decent recovery (not quite deadshot or beetle but still to be considered good
One can combo bf2 42 from fullscreen
Cons- His EXversion although mid, some shots of the multiple he throws can be low profiled, rather annoying.

Upshuriken (db2)
pros- covers a lot of space, espxailly when mb
His mb has little recovery

Cons- Normal db2 has very shit recovery. A worse version of batman's upbatarang

Bomb (bf1)
Pros- It can be used to keep them in check and flows quite well with bf2 zoning but not to be abused
Cons- an easy jump, but can be used as a bait

Airguns (air db2)
Pros- Decent dmg and creates tricky blocks with the bomb.
Cons- Awful recovery, almost unusable

Away roll (db3)
Pros-BYE BYE BYE gets well away from them
Mbdb3 will make redhood shoot, so can be used for dmg and mobility
Cons- Awful if it isn't mb

Overall
His zoning doesnt feel bad at all, although it is not great. He can be used as a zoner, but you will get wrecked by deadshot,fate and darkseid probs (havent played them, so dont take it too literally)

His b13 is my drug
9F high starter, doesnt have a cancel but doesnt 200dmg and is +2 on block lol
 

gibster13

A fan of fans
Made a short video demonstrating Redhood's zoning potential

I show recovery of his projectiles including
bf2/ (mb)
db2/ (mb)
db3/ (mb)
airdb2/ (mb)
42
bf1

Also show his link fullscreen bf2 42

 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Iv been playing Doctor Fate with a pocket Aquaman the whole game so far, Id like to post my month in impressions of Doctor Fate both in terms of how effective I think his zoning is and how effective he is as a character overall. To be clear, I think he's a very deep character that will take a long time to master so it's hard to say how good he is for sure but we need to generate more discussion.

Pros:
- great regular fireball in Amon Ra Blast that becomes a mid you can't crouch over distance. It does good damage and is a great way to check your opponent, mb version is good too.
- Displacer Orb covers a good deal of space, the slow travel helps to buy Doctor Fate some time, has enough advantage to connect an Amon Ra Blast on hit, the mb version stopping in place gives Doctor Fate some unpredictablity and can throw off timing for jump overs and can catch the shittier mb rolls if you are at the right distance.
- Ankhs are great. I used to think they were useless, but @OmGxBdON convinved me otherwise. I and a lot of Fate players are trying to integrate Ankh frame trap zoning into our game plan. It is hard for me to get a hold of right now at the time of this post, but I feel that if we integrate Ankhs into out game plan we will ultimately have a more complicated, deep, and effective zoning game.
- Great wakeup and get off me move in Glyph Push. It has considerable pushback on block to make it hard to punish for several character, has great knockback on hit to give Doctor Fate some space to work with. F2 xx Glyph Push is a good way to check an opponent that it too close for Amon Ra Blast to be a mid.
- Trait is very good, it makes all of his projectiles do a shit load of damage. It helps Doctor Fate win trades and possibly take control of a zoning battle he was losing. It makes the regular Glyph completely safe and have further knockback on hit, it makes the mb Glyph launch for a combo which he sorely needs, it alters the Ankhs to make approaching very dangerous if used right. It makes the orb launch as well, just making what was already good about the Displacer Orb even better. It can be canceled into, making F2 xx trait xx mb Glyph a good whiff punisher with decent damage. Grab also launches in the corner for free and with an Ankh midscreen in trait.
- Decent anti-airs. Not the greatest but they are serviceable.

Cons:
- Really limited combo capability. Like it's baaaad. Any real combo damage Doctor Fate does comes with several pre-requisites, whether that's having an Ankh, having a bar, or being in trait, he can't just do a broke jump in into 350 + damage, he has to work for it smartly.
- No legit mixups, he can set up some strike/throw scenarios, but abysmal grab range and the before mentioned limited combo capability make these not very threatening.
- bad frame data on strings making canceling into Glyph a necessity. This isn't necessarily a terrible thing but it's definitely not a pro and I thought it was still worth mentioning.
- I think Fate struggles against other hard zoners and the good counter zoners.
- Harder to use than mostly all characters. This isn't really a con for Fate as a character, but it's definitely a con for us players only being one month in to the game. A good Fate will require a person to truly main them and put in the effort. A pocket Fate would be pointless. If you're looking for a pocket zoner, pick Deadshot.
- Poor air control, see Superman matchup

Overall I think Doctor Fate is a well designed character who is good at what he was supposed to be good at and bad at what he isn't supposed to be good at. He's be not broken or garbage, I think he's balanced. I may be wrong and I'll admit it if it turns out I am, but I don't think Fate will be viable as a SOLO main. I think he will need a secondary since there are a surprising amount of characters that can get in on him without too much trouble. I'd recommend any Fate player pick up Aquaman too.

I think Fate is a better zoner than everyone but Deadshot. I think him and Deadshot have equally good zoning games, but Deadshot is much better overall and far more well rounded as a character. Deadshot's up close game is far better than Fate's. I feel that Deadshot's zoning is more straight forward and effective on a larger portion of the cast than Doctor Fate's, BUT for the characters that Fate CAN zone, it is fucking brutal.

I just wanted to get my thoughts out and try to generate discussion and see which parts of my analysis you guys agree and disagree on. I'll continue to play Fate at least until Sub-Zero is released.
 
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ABACABB

End Of Humanity
I have been looking at Blue Beetle, he doesnt seem to bad.

I have been called "Scum" "Zoning bitch" "dick" "[ban incoming] zoner" just today, so I think it is going well.
I guess on xbox ppl are nicer cuz ive already pleyed over 300 games in ranked on xbox with deadshot and got not even one hatemail . One guy sent me msg when we were at character select screen ,smth like " pls no zone just combos " and after I won he sent " I hope you had fun ;( "
 

Crusty

Retired forever; don’t ask for games.
@General M2Dave

Although he has good space control tools. Red Hood is not a pure zoner by any stretch of the imagination. He can harass people well at a distance regardless.

His shuriken is a good projectile with good recovery but that's where it's benefits end. The mb is designed for bad jump ins as it doesn't completely jai (not every shuriken will combo) unless you're probably close.

His up shuriken is slow asf in recovery and it's meant to be used for corner combos on mb. The mine is good for catching people rushing in but it can be jumped if timed correctly.

Then comes his trait-2 shot. It's quick and it gets the job done, catches people from rushing in but it's a high. It's also negative on block everywhere but fullscreen (where it's neutral) since projectile logic is minimal when applied to it. It's good against superman.

When it comes his air shot. This move is strictly used for counter-zoning and setups, nothing else. Not only is it double digit punishable regardless of the height it's done (since it propels him higher in the air), if misspaced even a little the long recovery kicks in. It's only used to jump a straight projectile and punish accordingly. The mb doesn't make it any less punishable too.

When it comes to anti-zoning.You're not keeping this guy out, lethal lunge closes in on the opponent at 8 frames of startup with decent recovery and no character has that privilege. Not to mention he can mb to cover his tracks and punish moves like aquaman's ftd at 95% of the screen. The trades with his mines and ftd are also in RH's favor because it outchips him. His back roll while it's primarily evasive, he can mb it to keep you from chasing him.

Worth mentioning his b3 can low profile even Dr Fate's orb.

These are my thoughts on him as I main the character. The character is a jack of all trades, master on none.
 
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gibster13

A fan of fans
I guess on xbox ppl are nicer cuz ive already pleyed over 300 games in ranked on xbox with deadshot and got not even one hatemail . One guy sent me msg when we were at character select screen ,smth like " pls no zone just combos " and after I won he sent " I hope you had fun ;( "
Jesus, I have got like 400 messages
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Thanks for the various character analyses.

I have been working on a "top 5 zoning characters of Injustice 2" list with detailed explanations. I am almost finished.

Post your top 5 and I will keep the feedback in mind.

Edit:
I think Fate is a better zoner than everyone but Deadshot. I think him and Deadshot have equally good zoning games, but Deadshot is much better overall and far more well rounded as a character. Deadshot's up close game is far better than Fate's. I feel that Deadshot's zoning is more straight forward and effective on a larger portion of the cast than Doctor Fate's, BUT for the characters that Fate CAN zone, it is fucking brutal.
With the possible exception of Deadshot, I think Darkseid is the best zoning character in the game. Aside from a set of below average normal attacks (albeit d+3 covers lots of space and is very safe when spaced properly), he is well-rounded. He has access to zoning, anti-zoning, unsafe yet rewarding 50/50 mix ups, an advantageous and double-hitting wake up attack, and top tier damage output. I think the instant aerial omega beam is the second best projectile in the game after Deadshot's wrist cannon. Darkseid is also a fairly deep character who allows for player creativity.
 
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tafka Djinn

One for three off the roof
I have gravitated once more towards characters who favor zoning and setups, leaving me co-maining Red Hood and Green Lantern. Both decidedly hybrid, but I'm not really a fan of Darkseid personally so they seem to be the best options for me.

¡Viva la comisión de zonificación y planificación!
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
The Anti-Zoning Academy is putting in good espionage and reconnaissance work these days :)

We are watching and continuing to take appropriate countermeasures.. Hehe
 

gibster13

A fan of fans
@General M2Dave
My top 5

1- Deadshot

By far the best zoner in the game, imo. He seems to have everything and can deal wth 90% of the cast.

He has very little risks to just fire a bf1 shot. It has insane recovery and can be rapid fired till you thumbs bleed or your opponent leaves. There just seems to be very few limitations to it.

His low gun as well as very good dmg, chip, pushback and is a low. The low gun perfectly compliments his gameplay.

His instant air gun also helps with those you attempt to jump or dash over his grounded shot. It is decent but only should be used on reads.

His trait makes his zoning far better. The b4 blue shot meant that he can push ppl back near to fullscreen if they get hit once. He can meter drain as well, but this is not as good as the blue,imo.

Overall, he just seems extremely solid and has very few drawbacks.

2- Doctor Fate

Fate can wrecked a huge percentage of the cast like deadshot. It is a lot harder to win with him than deadshot, but he is still very good.

His straightshot means that its almost impossible to move forwards at times and it is very hard to jump if Fate mixes his timing. His mbshot also does a lot of dmg and chip as well as very hard to jump.

His orb is insane. It is difficult to jump and it destroys some of the cast to the point where they can not move. On mb, some people can legit not dare to move and this just means free db3 or free shots.

His db3s offer even more of a fear game, and upon connecting three, they have to hold it. It is very effective in most matches.

Trait makes his zoning top tier. Far more zoning potential with db3 to the point where it is a safety harness. The chip is insane and one will find themselves down 50% and they haven't not even go in. It is what makes him win most trades.

Overall, a godlike zoner and his animations are sexy.

FROM HER IT IS TOUGH BECAUSE A CHARACTER MY HAVE INSANE ZONING TOOLS BUT THE REST OF THEIR KIT DRAGS THEM DOWN.

3- Darkseid

Lasers, Laser and Lasers

HIs lasers do hella dmg and are very quick. The mb version will almost never miss and will always win a trade.

HIs air lasers have very little recovery and landing and doing a laser straightaway is very difficult to advance on. His mbairlaser commands so much respect it is insane, they have to block.

Trait is what can take it to the next level. The oh4 with low lasers, creating hard to blockables.
The charging4 making them have to hold what every you throw at them.

His tp allows him to destroy other zoners, who may also lose the trade to him.

Overall, it is clear how good this god is at zoning. It was hard to decide between him or Fate tbh.

4- Poison Ivy

It is extremely close to who holds this spot and I am still on the fence.

Her drill is one of the best moves in the game imo, its tracking is insane, does decent dmg, knockdown, can me mb on block adding to the mind game and grants her that disgusting trait.

She can just drill for days and chip them to death. Her meter build is godlike and alongside her trait, it is impossible impossible to move for most of the cast.

5- Cyborg

HIs shots do a ton of dmg and they cover every area. His dd3 is insane but too slow.
His trait allows for a ton of chip into setups of pure fireballs leading to over 300dmg.
He is let down by his normals but from fullscreen, he can be overwhelming.

Honourable mentions
Green arrow-Firearrows and more Firearrows
Harely quinn- A lot of control, just outside top 5 in zoning.
bluebeetle- HIs fireball is mental and combine with his safe shield and flight, he can be a pain
Supes- Lasers and dmg
batman- shockingly decent
Aquaman- FTD is strong but isn't really a zoner
Blackadma-potentialy best in the game. He zone a lot of ppl and sit on a life lead till the clock runs down

I CBA TO PROOF READ SO IF THERE ARE MISTAKES MY BAD
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Thanks for the various character analyses.

I have been working on a "top 5 zoning characters of Injustice 2" list with detailed explanations. I am almost finished.

Post your top 5 and I will keep the feedback in mind.

Edit:


With the possible exception of Deadshot, I think Darkseid is the best zoning character in the game. Aside from a set of below average normal attacks (albeit d+3 covers lots of space and is very safe when spaced properly), he is well-rounded. He has access to zoning, anti-zoning, unsafe yet rewarding 50/50 mix ups, an advantageous and double-hitting wake up attack, and top tier damage output. I think the instant aerial omega beam is the second best projectile in the game after Deadshot's wrist cannon. Darkseid is also a fairly deep character who allows for player creativity.
I can see that for sure. My opinion of Darkseid is slightly skewed from the perspective of Aquaman, but Darkseid is very good too. I definitely think Darkseid is a better character than Fate.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Only taking into account their keepaway games:
1. Fate
2. Deadshot
3. Darkseid
4. Ivy
5. Cyborg

By what I perceive their actual quality as characters to be, with all aspects taken into account:
1. Deadshot
2. Darkseid
3. Harley
4. Ivy
5. Fate
 

OmGxBdON

I'm going to make Fate top ten
1. I think deadshot and fate are tied for zoning gods especially as people get better with fate. Deadshot is very straight forward compared to fate who has a lot of options for keep away just not as potatoe.
2. Blue beetle/ ivy
3. Cyborg
4. Darkseid- I personally don't see darkseid as much of a zoner. He gets zoned out by other zoners. It's really his dmg output from his mix that allows you to zone people out. Darkseod doesn't win zoning wars he gets a huge life lead before he zones. Ofcourse there is the exception of non-projectile characters but even then I think darkseids zoning is easy to get passed minus the minion into mix.
5. Green lantern/Harley
 
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M2Dave

Zoning Master
4. Darkseid- I personally don't see darkseid as much of a zoner. He gets zoned out by other zoners. It's really his dmg output from his mix that allows you to zone people out. Darkseod doesn't win zoning wars he gets a huge life lead before he zones. Ofcourse there is the exception of non-projectile characters but even then I think darkseids zoning is easy to get passed minus the minion into mix.
How does Darkseid get zoned out by other zoning characters? He has one of the best, if not the best, anti-zoning tool in the game. I believe he has the fastest non-EX projectile in the game too. The projectile also knocks down and stays active much longer than others.

By the way, mix ups and damage output are part of a zoning character's zoning tools. Judging Darkseid without his 50/50 mix up and damage output would be like judging Deadshot without his 50/50 mix up. With the exception of Deadshot, Darkseid easily zones out the other characters that you mentioned in your top 5.
 

DarksydeDash

You know me as RisingShieldBro online.
Initial impressions of Red Hood is that he is a "Trap Zoner"

By that I mean you want to make your opponent land on the mine whenever possible so they attempt movement either by jumping or Dashing forward.

If they jump, we can hit them out of the sky with a db2 or a well timed 4 2.

What we really want to see is forward movement because once they get close enough to jump in range, they eat a midscreen HTB with air db2 or we straight up go for a J2 that jails into his trait for giant chip damage.

His throw also sends them full screen.

Lastly, more people need to abuse b13 with Hood because it is actually more plus the farther the grenades of the string hit. So plus in fact, you can jail them into a df3 or a b23 if they are cornered.
 

OmGxBdON

I'm going to make Fate top ten
How does Darkseid get zoned out by other zoning characters? He has one of the best, if not the best, anti-zoning tool in the game. I believe he has the fastest non-EX projectile in the game too. The projectile also knocks down and stays active much longer than others.

By the way, mix ups and damage output are part of a zoning character's zoning tools. Judging Darkseid without his 50/50 mix up and damage output would be like judging Deadshot without his 50/50 mix up. With the exception of Deadshot, Darkseid easily zones out the other characters that you mentioned in your top 5.
Fate, blue beetle and I'm sure other characters possibly firestorm can shoot a fireball and duck darkseids beams to avoid trades. The darkseid player has to get a life lead if he wants to zone characters like these out. But u should probably be going for mix in these situations considering darkseid gets zoned out by them. My time spent playing against darkseod is defending against a teleport or a mix. Unless my their life lead is good, I'm not really the one trying to get in.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Fate, blue beetle and I'm sure other characters possibly firestorm can shoot a fireball and duck darkseids beams to avoid trades. The darkseid player has to get a life lead if he wants to zone characters like these out. But u should probably be going for mix in these situations considering darkseid gets zoned out by them. My time spent playing against darkseod is defending against a teleport or a mix. Unless my their life lead is good, I'm not really the one trying to get in.
You talk as though Darkseid did not have the best teleport in the game. He threatens any player who is trying to zone with an instant aerial teleport -> jumping 3 -> EX stomp -> b+3 -> jumping 3 -> jumping 2 -> stomp, which does around 500 points of damage, and guarantees character power activation against the vast majority of characters, leading to a hard-to-blockable mix up or a 50/50 mix up. No character in this game has such damaging anti-zoning options.

As Darkseid, I worry about the mid range game, not getting zoned out, because Darkseid's normal attacks are lacking. I think the only character who zones out Darkseid is Aquaman as Tentacle Strike controls the pace of the match and Darkseid can neither punish nor check the move outside of mid range, yet Aquaman punishes grounded omega beams from long ranges, forcing you to play this match differently.