Tech - Smoke Universal Anti-Wakeup Setup

[MajinBerserker]

@Scott The Scot
Kotal Kahn- both the EX Air Grab and regular Air Grab will snatch Smoke from the air after a run-NJ/NJP. Tested with both F213 and 213 as hkd.
I tried a little different timings, as well, and the Air Grabs almost seem to auto correct. Oh well.
Surprisingly enough, War God's EX Overhead Sword Smash doesn't catch Smoke's run-NJ, even with its big range.

Kano-
Up & Uprise Ball beat Smoke's NJ options, clean out.
Black Dragon Ball (EX Ball) beats Smoke's NJ options if* the player holds the Ball for the cancel/combo launch. Kano can also absorb the NJ attack with the hit of armor and cancel the Ball to remain safe.
Choke & Strangle (Commando var.) will catch Smoke's NJ options if he uses 213. Smoke can use F213 and quickly run-NJ to avoid the moves' AA.
May just have to let Kano wake up, he's got good, safe answers for the run-NJ strategy. Few of them meterless, as well And the command grabs in Commando will catch Smoke if he uses a hkd and sits there, too close.

 

[Scott The Scot]

@Scott The Scot
Kotal Kahn- both the EX Air Grab and regular Air Grab will snatch Smoke from the air after a run-NJ/NJP. Tested with both F213 and 213 as hkd.
I tried a little different timings, as well, and the Air Grabs almost seem to auto correct. Oh well.
Surprisingly enough, War God's EX Overhead Sword Smash doesn't catch Smoke's run-NJ, even with its big range.

Kano-
Up & Uprise Ball beat Smoke's NJ options, clean out.
Black Dragon Ball (EX Ball) beats Smoke's NJ options if* the player holds the Ball for the cancel/combo launch. Kano can also absorb the NJ attack with the hit of armor and cancel the Ball to remain safe.
Choke & Strangle (Commando var.) will catch Smoke's NJ options if he uses 213. Smoke can use F213 and quickly run-NJ to avoid the moves' AA.
May just have to let Kano wake up, he's got good, safe answers for the run-NJ strategy. Few of them meterless, as well And the command grabs in Commando will catch Smoke if he uses a hkd and sits there, too close.

Good work, I'll add them to the OP.

 

[Scott The Scot]

@MajinBerserker After further testing, you can reverse Kanos Choke consistently off of 213 and f213. You must have mistimed it

 

[MajinBerserker]

@MajinBerserker After further testing, you can reverse Kanos Choke consistently off of 213 and f213. You must have mistimed it

Oh okay, awesome. I'm sure I NJ too soon. Good to know.

 

[EMPEROR PRYCE]

The idea of this is it reverses the INPUTS for the wakeups right? So the opponent would have to know to reverse their inputs, otherwise the wake up won't come out.

I could see this making normals whiff on wake up and whiff punishing. Or causing the wrong move to come out and making them waste the bar.

Normally off this string I phase forward and cause wake ups to whiff. I'll have to try this though because this may be better.

Awesome stuff

 

[Nausea]

This is sick man! Your Smoke is looking dangerous!

 

[Darth Mao]

Wow! Only Smoke or Triborg in general?

 

[Parasurama]

An instant njp is punishable right, if they bait this themselves?

 

[God Confirm]

Hey Scott, I'm really liking what you are finding with Smoke. I'm stuck between disliking Smoke's low damage vortex coin flips, but also struggling with his absolutely worthless oki game (shitty oki strings and most midscreen enders send fullscreen). This seems like an excellent way to take a bit more damage off each combo (metered ones anyway), while still being able to apply a good oki mix-up, and also not be too worried about armor just like the vortex. And also it's sexy injustice style tech. I think it's exactly the middle ground I'm looking for and I think I'm going to make this my go to ender for my metered combos that don't end anywhere near a corner (where F43~Throwdown is obviously optimal).



Some notes:


a delayed NjK on the way back down jails into both F1 and F4. An NjP delayed to the very last second can also do the same, but the window is 3 frames tighter.

Both options will still leave you plus regardless if used on the way down, I didn't have too much trouble at all beating out Lao spin with my F1 even after an NjP.

Tip for execution on stick, just learn the timing to input the run as soon as possible during the end of the animation, hold Up on the stick, and tap the block button for a millisecond when its the right timing to NjP.


213 and F213 are both HKD. Your other HKD alternative's are B213, Sweep, or Air Throw, but Sweep is pretty bad combo wise with crappy range and is going to cost you damage, midscreen air throw sends them too far, and B213 only leaves you +3, so this tech is mostly pretty much restricted to the first two options.


If anyone's interested in max damage combo's giving this set-up, here's what I could find.

Spoiler

F13/111~EX-TP, RC, 21, 4~Trident, JiP, 4~Bomb, RC, 213 = 37% 1-Bar

F43~EX-TP, 4~Trident, JiP, 4~Bomb, NjP, RC, F213 = 39%

As far as I can tell it's not worth going for it off a meterless opener, getting only like 1% extra than going for the vortex, and in the corner you don't need to alter your combo's as you already get this set-up off your F43~Throwdown ender anyway, but midscreen the damage kinda justifies the bar a bit better than the vortex combo's do, at least to me.



Very nice tech @Scott The Scot I was looking for something like this but didn't know where to begin, but then I vaguely recalled this thread, it's definitely a universal mechanic but its especially great for Smoke IMO

 

[Scott The Scot]

Hey Scott, I'm really liking what you are finding with Smoke. I'm stuck between disliking Smoke's low damage vortex coin flips, but also struggling with his absolutely worthless oki game (shitty oki strings and most midscreen enders send fullscreen). This seems like an excellent way to take a bit more damage off each combo (metered ones anyway), while still being able to apply a good oki mix-up, and also not be too worried about armor just like the vortex. And also it's sexy injustice style tech. I think it's exactly the middle ground I'm looking for and I think I'm going to make this my go to ender for my metered combos that don't end anywhere near a corner (where F43~Throwdown is obviously optimal).



Some notes:


a delayed NjK on the way back down jails into both F1 and F4. An NjP delayed to the very last second can also do the same, but the window is 3 frames tighter.

Both options will still leave you plus regardless if used on the way down, I didn't have too much trouble at all beating out Lao spin with my F1 even after an NjP.

Tip for execution on stick, just learn the timing to input the run as soon as possible during the end of the animation, hold Up on the stick, and tap the block button for a millisecond when its the right timing to NjP.


213 and F213 are both HKD. Your other HKD alternative's are B213, Sweep, or Air Throw, but Sweep is pretty bad combo wise with crappy range and is going to cost you damage, midscreen air throw sends them too far, and B213 only leaves you +3, so this tech is mostly pretty much restricted to the first two options.


If anyone's interested in max damage combo's giving this set-up, here's what I could find.

Spoiler

F13/111~EX-TP, RC, 21, 4~Trident, JiP, 4~Bomb, RC, 213 = 37% 1-Bar

F43~EX-TP, 4~Trident, JiP, 4~Bomb, NjP, RC, F213 = 39%

As far as I can tell it's not worth going for it off a meterless opener, getting only like 1% extra than going for the vortex, and in the corner you don't need to alter your combo's as you already get this set-up off your F43~Throwdown ender anyway, but midscreen the damage kinda justifies the bar a bit better than the vortex combo's do, at least to me.



Very nice tech @Scott The Scot I was looking for something like this but didn't know where to begin, but then I vaguely recalled this thread, it's definitely a universal mechanic but its especially great for Smoke IMO

Thanks for the nice words! I think I mentioned somewhere in the OP and/or in the thread that you can do it from a F213 and in the video I mentioned sweep iirc. I didn't even consider doing delayed NJK with Smoke after this ender. I do it when I play Jason and didn't even think to apply it here. I will definitely add it to my game next time I play

I'll add your post to the OP because I think it's worth other people seeing if they visit the thread

 

[God Confirm]

Thanks for the nice words! I think I mentioned somewhere in the OP and/or in the thread that you can do it from a F213 and in the video I mentioned sweep iirc. I didn't even consider doing delayed NJK with Smoke after this ender. I do it when I play Jason and didn't even think to apply it here. I will definitely add it to my game next time I play

I'll add your post to the OP because I think it's worth other people seeing if they visit the thread

Yeah you definitely mentioned F213 and Sweep, I just went through and tested the practicality of them all and just wanted to share my findings. I think you struck gold with the first two enders you mentioned, 213 and F213. It's cool because combined with your OTHER tech, the meaty B1~Bomb, the enders both also just set up a flat 50/50 as well which you can choose to go for, or you can go for a mix-up on the input reversal, and even if they read that it will still likely whiff them, and even if it doesn't you can disguise the timing of the neutral jump so that it DOESN'T reverse inputs (meta!) so I really like this, all of a sudden he's got a dope oki game, when it was really abysmal before.

 

[Ragnarök Tyr]

"There is no new tech, only gimmicks"



Just kidding of course.

 

[omooba]

Hey Scott, I'm really liking what you are finding with Smoke. I'm stuck between disliking Smoke's low damage vortex coin flips, but also struggling with his absolutely worthless oki game (shitty oki strings and most midscreen enders send fullscreen). This seems like an excellent way to take a bit more damage off each combo (metered ones anyway), while still being able to apply a good oki mix-up, and also not be too worried about armor just like the vortex. And also it's sexy injustice style tech. I think it's exactly the middle ground I'm looking for and I think I'm going to make this my go to ender for my metered combos that don't end anywhere near a corner (where F43~Throwdown is obviously optimal).



Some notes:


a delayed NjK on the way back down jails into both F1 and F4. An NjP delayed to the very last second can also do the same, but the window is 3 frames tighter.

Both options will still leave you plus regardless if used on the way down, I didn't have too much trouble at all beating out Lao spin with my F1 even after an NjP.

Tip for execution on stick, just learn the timing to input the run as soon as possible during the end of the animation, hold Up on the stick, and tap the block button for a millisecond when its the right timing to NjP.


213 and F213 are both HKD. Your other HKD alternative's are B213, Sweep, or Air Throw, but Sweep is pretty bad combo wise with crappy range and is going to cost you damage, midscreen air throw sends them too far, and B213 only leaves you +3, so this tech is mostly pretty much restricted to the first two options.


If anyone's interested in max damage combo's giving this set-up, here's what I could find.

Spoiler

F13/111~EX-TP, RC, 21, 4~Trident, JiP, 4~Bomb, RC, 213 = 37% 1-Bar

F43~EX-TP, 4~Trident, JiP, 4~Bomb, NjP, RC, F213 = 39%

As far as I can tell it's not worth going for it off a meterless opener, getting only like 1% extra than going for the vortex, and in the corner you don't need to alter your combo's as you already get this set-up off your F43~Throwdown ender anyway, but midscreen the damage kinda justifies the bar a bit better than the vortex combo's do, at least to me.



Very nice tech @Scott The Scot I was looking for something like this but didn't know where to begin, but then I vaguely recalled this thread, it's definitely a universal mechanic but its especially great for Smoke IMO

IMO smoke is top 5

 

[God Confirm]

IMO smoke is top 5

hes really good but you crazy

this is universal tech, its only good on smoke because his other options are shit

and he still makes real tradeoffs to use this tech

 

[omooba]

hes really good but you crazy

this is universal tech, its only good on smoke because his other options are shit

smoke is a contender for the best neutral in the game. no one can punish his 50/50 vortex without using meter which he can bait and make plus. he has good pressure, midscreen 50/50(unsafe). honestly if you fight a good smoke regardless of who you're using you are always playing his game. his invcibility phase is one of the scariest things in this game and it's safe. but like i said just my opinion. i really a lot on winning neutral so someone like smoke is very overwhelming for me

 

[God Confirm]

no one can punish his 50/50 vortex without using meter which he can bait and make plus.

You can jump out of it instead of armoring and neutral jump into full combo

his invcibility phase is one of the scariest things in this game and it's safe

It's really good but completely full combo punishable during the recovery frames on read, and it isn't throw immune either so you can option select him out a little with that too

but like i said just my opinion. i really a lot on winning neutral so someone like smoke is very overwhelming for me

No worries, you are usually on point but on this one I think you missed the mark a little, and I been up-playing Smoke hard

He's a great character and he basically always wants to be pressing buttons, hes very good at taking his turn and keeping it, its pretty fun to play as, but his vortex is punishable as is his invincibility, and his neutral is good but definitely not the best

 

[omooba]

You can jump out of it instead of armoring and neutral jump into full combo


It's really good but completely full combo punishable during the recovery frames on read]

on enhanced one? are u sure?

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

You can jump out of it instead of armoring and neutral jump into full combo

This can only be done on read, not reaction. If he does something like raw B1 or the B3 string instead of cancelling into smoke bomb you're gonna get punished for trying to jump

 

[God Confirm]

This can only be done on read, not reaction. If he does something like raw B1 or the B3 string instead of cancelling into smoke bomb you're gonna get punished for trying to jump

its a 50/50... of course you gotta make a read, and yeah if he doesn't go into combo and staggers his strings in different manners he might catch you off guard, or, he might just completely give up his turn. No different to Sonya or anyone, at least Smokes is punishable when he goes for combo.

on enhanced one? are u sure?

well, no, if he spends a bar for no other reason than to make his 50/50 safe, then yeah, it makes it safe. And all he gets on hit for it is 26% for a bar.

 

[God Confirm]

I'm not saying it's a bad 50/50 but he ain't top 5 material by a long shot



I know @Scott The Scot is a pretty big Smoke up-player as well, he's the only person playing this character who I've seen admit how awesome he is, however I'm pretty sure even he would agree that we ain't even top 10 let alone 5. Maybe he does though I won't speak for him but maybe he can give you a second opinion?

 

[Scott The Scot]

Smoke is ABSOLUTELY not a top 5 character. Not even top 10 imo. He just has too many issues but people just don't lab the matchup and let Smoke get away with murder.

I see Smokes on stream just canceling everything into Smoke Bomb and the opponents don't even know you can easily interrup that. Smoke Bomb literally takes 30 frames, learn the MU. Even when Smoke spends a bar there's a gap. He can always be punished. And when you're in Evo grand finals against say Fox or Foxy. Are they NOT going to take advantage of that weakness? Ha!

His F4 is a 10 frame advancing mid. Sounds good. But the hitbox sucks on it and it gets low profiled by so many pokes.

Smoke is sort of a gimmick. If he tries to whiff a B2 to follow up with the rest of the string and get a free telepunch into a mixup scenario then here's how to beat that: walk forward and the telepunch will whiff and you get a punish. Gimmick.

You need to spend a bar to combo off of the overhead midscreen unless it's hit meaty, that sucks.

People don't exploit his wakeup game enough. Here's what you do to make Smoke not wakeup: Knock him down, do a meaty poke (preferably at max range) - don't commit to a 50/50 or a string you maniac. If it's blocked then you're back to just playing (your turn isn't over btw) but if it hits then it's your turn still. If he phases towards you then you can just punish him and or at least keep your turn (what did he spend the bar for? Nothing). If you're midscreen and he phases away from you then fine, you need to make a read that he's going to do it but you can just let him do it. Because he spends a bar to get away, not shift the momentum of the match, not have his turn and not be in a favourable position.

I'm not saying Smoke sucks. I just think he's overrated. He still has a vortex. He still has a good neutral. He doesn't have to worry about armour breaking if somebody is going in hard on him. He gets a full combo punish for blowing up a gap rather than just from and armoured launcher. He still has godlike anti air normals (if you know when to use them lol). He's not bad. Just not as good as everybody thinks.


EDIT: Anybody thinking of replying to this then please take it over to general discussion or something. This isn't the place to debate Smokes position on the tier list or viability of tools or strategies.
https://testyourmight.com/threads/xl-robo-smoke-discussion-thread.58928/

Thanks for reading though!

 

[omooba]

well, no, if he spends a bar for no other reason than to make his 50/50 safe, then yeah, it makes it safe. And all he gets on hit for it is 26% for a bar.

was talking about as a wake up option or to get out of pressure. well i guess it's an opinion thing but imo he's top 5 mostly cus ignoring his offense close range. he has the best neutral in this game

 

[21122]

My favorite smoke gimmick is F21 into 3 or DB4 mix up

Why does F21-> 3 have a gap? Makes no sense.

 

[Scott The Scot]

My favorite smoke gimmick is F21 into 3 or DB4 mix up

Why does F21-> 3 have a gap? Makes no sense.

Well it's -6 so you can bait armour if somebody is blowing you up lol.

 

[21122]

Well it's -6 so you can bait armour if somebody is blowing you up lol.

Thanks, lol woops didn't realize I posted in the wrong thread xD