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Guide - Cyber Sub-Zero FULL CSZ Character Guide - w/ Breakdown, Combos, Tech, Strategies & More!

Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
Just make F13~Ball connect again NotLikeThis
and speed up his iceball again....seriously what was wrong with him having some decent zoning?

also maybe make ex dive kick safe? i missed how the normal divekick was pseudo safe, but currently theres really no reason to spend a bar on that move.
 

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
what are you talking about? after that set-up I can just poke out. even if it is hard to poke out without triggering delayed wake-up (its really not) because move like 10f or faster at least will beat out B3.... possibly even slower, I stopped testing once I was sure the entire cast could easily poke out, which is most relevant because the lowprofile also beats like every option except divekick. Have you tested this? try practice against Sub set to wake up Slide, thats a 9f lowprofile move, that will replicate even the slowest pokes. See what options you have to beat it that lead into combo.
This is an easy fix, it's execution or communication issue on one or both of our parts. There's something to be learned, but let's make sure we're on the same page before we get to that part. I've already outlined what I'm working with in the post you replied to, so that should be clear. But there are some things I'm aware of that may cause inconsistencies in our debate. Again, not to insult your intelligence as you may already know these things, but this is also for others reading.
  1. The wake-up "window" actually spans over a few frames. AI will hit the earliest possible frame waking up every time, but humans may hit the latter frames causing the "wake-up" message to appear while actually having a slower wake-up attack. There are very few frames separating inputs registering "wake-up" and "tech roll," so precision is key.
  2. Tech rolling a "splat" type knockdown actually increases the frame disadvantage the opponent suffers, while also giving them a later "wake-up" opportunity. CSZ's opponents don't want this, even if they're committed to an armored wake-up as it run the possibility of being armor broken.
  3. Neutral jump is somehow slower than forward and backward jump, as such players are more likely to use f-jump or b-jump instead of neutral jump to escape a bad situation.
Your claim was opponents could get out of CSZ set-ups for free by poking or jumping out. My claim was simply counter to yours, with some details.

I recorded the combo > set-up in question, along with a variety of attempted escape options. As the set-up is recorded, the timing is the same every time while I control the defending player. I'll describe what's happening in "revolutions," as the combo will be repeated multiple times. For those who won't/ cannot watch the video, feel free to read along.



  • Revolution 1 - Wake-up Slide (fastest). The opponent is able to escape the set-up using the earliest possible wake-up window.
  • Revolution 2 - Wake-up Slide (other than fastest). The opponent's slide is stuffed, but we can still see this is a wake-up as shown in the bottom right of the screen. Follow up combo included to show severity of the mistake (50%+).
  • Revolution 3 - Neutral jump. Simply put, I held up. Jump came out on the earliest possible frame and was hit. Had MB Cryo Bomb been used, opponent would be full combo punished.
  • Revolution 4 - Forward jump. Opponent is hit, combo'd into bomb, albeit airborne. Full Combo punished.
  • Revolution 5 - Backwards jump. Same result as above.
Point being the same as it was before; the opponent does not get out for free. The opponents timing has to be on point or they're losing 50%, and that's just considering one set-up.
 

navaroNe

Nobody's afraid of Bruce Wayne
This is an easy fix, it's execution or communication issue on one or both of our parts. There's something to be learned, but let's make sure we're on the same page before we get to that part. I've already outlined what I'm working with in the post you replied to, so that should be clear. But there are some things I'm aware of that may cause inconsistencies in our debate. Again, not to insult your intelligence as you may already know these things, but this is also for others reading.
  1. The wake-up "window" actually spans over a few frames. AI will hit the earliest possible frame waking up every time, but humans may hit the latter frames causing the "wake-up" message to appear while actually having a slower wake-up attack. There are very few frames separating inputs registering "wake-up" and "tech roll," so precision is key.
  2. Tech rolling a "splat" type knockdown actually increases the frame disadvantage the opponent suffers, while also giving them a later "wake-up" opportunity. CSZ's opponents don't want this, even if they're committed to an armored wake-up as it run the possibility of being armor broken.
  3. Neutral jump is somehow slower than forward and backward jump, as such players are more likely to use f-jump or b-jump instead of neutral jump to escape a bad situation.
Your claim was opponents could get out of CSZ set-ups for free by poking or jumping out. My claim was simply counter to yours, with some details.

I recorded the combo > set-up in question, along with a variety of attempted escape options. As the set-up is recorded, the timing is the same every time while I control the defending player. I'll describe what's happening in "revolutions," as the combo will be repeated multiple times. For those who won't/ cannot watch the video, feel free to read along.



  • Revolution 1 - Wake-up Slide (fastest). The opponent is able to escape the set-up using the earliest possible wake-up window.
  • Revolution 2 - Wake-up Slide (other than fastest). The opponent's slide is stuffed, but we can still see this is a wake-up as shown in the bottom right of the screen. Follow up combo included to show severity of the mistake (50%+).
  • Revolution 3 - Neutral jump. Simply put, I held up. Jump came out on the earliest possible frame and was hit. Had MB Cryo Bomb been used, opponent would be full combo punished.
  • Revolution 4 - Forward jump. Opponent is hit, combo'd into bomb, albeit airborne. Full Combo punished.
  • Revolution 5 - Backwards jump. Same result as above.
Point being the same as it was before; the opponent does not get out for free. The opponents timing has to be on point or they're losing 50%, and that's just considering one set-up.
Nice guide Reo, honestly did not know about the 212 being special cancellable if you use the drone, pretty cool stuff. @RM Ree just wondering, what do you mean by losing 50% for one mistake? I'm pretty sure he only gets at most like 40% unless you're talking about the combined damage of the before combo and then the combo they take if they guess wrong?
 
Reactions: REO

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
Nice guide Reo, honestly did not know about the 212 being special cancellable if you use the drone, pretty cool stuff. @RM Ree just wondering, what do you mean by losing 50% for one mistake? I'm pretty sure he only gets at most like 40% unless you're talking about the combined damage of the before combo and then the combo they take if they guess wrong?
Max I've seen is 54%. But yeah, I meant the combined damage.
 

MK_Al

Noob
I think the problem is that they wanted to keep the game as balanced as possible
Well they did a good job with that :DOGE

Anyways, what would they patch to make SCZ competitive? Because I don't think that they will take back the DK nerf (which was absurd). Make f4 -5 on block? Give his d3 better range? Reduce the scaling of his specials to get his combo dmg up to 35%, or maybe 35%-40% with one bar? Any opinions on that topic?
 

14K

Noob
Well they did a good job with that :DOGE

Anyways, what would they patch to make SCZ competitive? Because I don't think that they will take back the DK nerf (which was absurd). Make f4 -5 on block? Give his d3 better range? Reduce the scaling of his specials to get his combo dmg up to 35%, or maybe 35%-40% with one bar? Any opinions on that topic?
the nerfs that are specific to the Borg (character) hurt CSZ (variation) a lot, they wanted to "nerf" the other variations and in the process kinda destroyed CSZ, so our starters got hit pretty hard, the nerf to the iceball was unwarranted, even if its a launcher its a non chip/high/punishable projectile, the startup of the move was never really a problem, so if they wanted to nerf it, they should have gave it maybe more recovery just so ppl dont shotgun it... even still i believe the Iceball was fine, if it was a chip/mid/fast recovery projectile the outcries about it might have some foundation but it was never broken to begin with... its just a countless nr of little nerfs here and there to the character and variation that destroyed CSZ... CSZ was really good, but he was no where near the kinda good the top 5 characters are maybe even more, so this what they did to CSZ was not balance him, was just remove him from ever being relevant
 

Parasurama

Dragon
I think the problem is that they wanted to keep the game as balanced as possible.

Which I love, but not when some characters keep all major dirt and high reward stuff while others get core stuff taken away.

Like I said, the Dive kicks was huge...
Alien needs or needed the nerfs! The cyborgs were a theoretical threat.
 

Toodrunk2combo

Sub and kotal FTW
Csz is fun to play and this definitely helps. Does it seems as if it's not worth it to use meter in his combos? The damage trade off seems better spent saving meter for a breaker.
 
Reactions: REO

MK_Al

Noob
Csz is fun to play and this definitely helps. Does it seems as if it's not worth it to use meter in his combos? The damage trade off seems better spent saving meter for a breaker.
b1xxEX bf1 or b3xxEX bf1 is a way to make his 50/50 (almost) safe, and you can hitconfirm f131 into ex db1 in case you can't hitconfirm f13 into iceball. Other than that I can't think of any usefull way to spend meter during combo.
 
Reactions: REO

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
This is an easy fix, it's execution or communication issue on one or both of our parts. There's something to be learned, but let's make sure we're on the same page before we get to that part. I've already outlined what I'm working with in the post you replied to, so that should be clear. But there are some things I'm aware of that may cause inconsistencies in our debate. Again, not to insult your intelligence as you may already know these things, but this is also for others reading.
  1. The wake-up "window" actually spans over a few frames. AI will hit the earliest possible frame waking up every time, but humans may hit the latter frames causing the "wake-up" message to appear while actually having a slower wake-up attack. There are very few frames separating inputs registering "wake-up" and "tech roll," so precision is key.
  2. Tech rolling a "splat" type knockdown actually increases the frame disadvantage the opponent suffers, while also giving them a later "wake-up" opportunity. CSZ's opponents don't want this, even if they're committed to an armored wake-up as it run the possibility of being armor broken.
  3. Neutral jump is somehow slower than forward and backward jump, as such players are more likely to use f-jump or b-jump instead of neutral jump to escape a bad situation.
Your claim was opponents could get out of CSZ set-ups for free by poking or jumping out. My claim was simply counter to yours, with some details.

I recorded the combo > set-up in question, along with a variety of attempted escape options. As the set-up is recorded, the timing is the same every time while I control the defending player. I'll describe what's happening in "revolutions," as the combo will be repeated multiple times. For those who won't/ cannot watch the video, feel free to read along.



  • Revolution 1 - Wake-up Slide (fastest). The opponent is able to escape the set-up using the earliest possible wake-up window.
  • Revolution 2 - Wake-up Slide (other than fastest). The opponent's slide is stuffed, but we can still see this is a wake-up as shown in the bottom right of the screen. Follow up combo included to show severity of the mistake (50%+).
  • Revolution 3 - Neutral jump. Simply put, I held up. Jump came out on the earliest possible frame and was hit. Had MB Cryo Bomb been used, opponent would be full combo punished.
  • Revolution 4 - Forward jump. Opponent is hit, combo'd into bomb, albeit airborne. Full Combo punished.
  • Revolution 5 - Backwards jump. Same result as above.
Point being the same as it was before; the opponent does not get out for free. The opponents timing has to be on point or they're losing 50%, and that's just considering one set-up.
No insults taken, I appreciate the in depth reply. Maybe I did need some insults to my intelligence however, because somehow, thick old me still isnt understanding :p Doesn't Revolution One just show that with the right timing, you can poke out every time? What am I missing here?
 

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
No insults taken, I appreciate the in depth reply. Maybe I did need some insults to my intelligence however, because somehow, thick old me still isnt understanding :p Doesn't Revolution One just show that with the right timing, you can poke out every time? What am I missing here?
Yes, it absolutely does. But the situation isn't quite as exaggerated as we salty CSZ faithful would like to believe. It does require consistently good timing, and there is high risk associated with it especially since we have faster options like f43 xx CDK, or even jump back > dive kick like you mentioned.

If an opponent hits that small of a window on a hard read to poke me out, I just wouldn't call it free.
 

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
Yes, it absolutely does. But the situation isn't quite as exaggerated as we salty CSZ faithful would like to believe. It does require consistently good timing, and there is high risk associated with it especially since we have faster options like f43 xx CDK, or even jump back > dive kick like you mentioned.

If an opponent hits that small of a window on a hard read to poke me out, I just wouldn't call it free.
Ok, no doubt, I didn't call it for free either, but I do think his set-up game is pretty trash when the only thing you are guaranteed is jump back divekick

F43 too but it doesnt lead to combo


a lot of his options just feel like you would have been better off going for the naked 50/50 rather than the bomb set up, at least there is a reward there, sure its punishable, but so is divekick. Bomb doesn't seem to add a whole lot
 

babalook

Noob
They need to return his iceball to its previous speed and his f2 to it previous knockdown advantage, this character is straight shit now.
 

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
He is to me, the worst character in the game hands down. The risks he takes are ridiculous and the payoff is not high. Nothing really new in REO's guide, I respect him for using the character, but hell he used pre-buff Jason more than hes used CSZ so it doesn't change my opinion of anything
 

Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
Look at the work and bar to get 28% lol
As disgusting and idiotic the nerfs to him were, I still play him from time to time when I'm facing a player that isnt very good...in most other cases, I go back to Ermac. CSZ's corner game is cute but if people know how to block it, it's a guessing game on our part and theres but wtv that's not even what bothers me. It's having to spend 1 bar of meter after I open someone up for a 27% combo only to have it get breakered right after the enhanced iceball. It's also the fact that if I do 1 or 11 into an iceball it doesnt work and that every time I summon a drone, I know my shit damage turns into diarrhea.

So yes, you can still play him and beat many people with him but it's a huge struggle (as opposed to a more fair fight) against a lot of the cast or if your playing against someone that's good.
 

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
Look at the work and bar to get 28% lol
As disgusting and idiotic the nerfs to him were, I still play him from time to time when I'm facing a player that isnt very good...in most other cases, I go back to Ermac. CSZ's corner game is cute but if people know how to block it, it's a guessing game on our part and theres but wtv that's not even what bothers me. It's having to spend 1 bar of meter after I open someone up for a 27% combo only to have it get breakered right after the enhanced iceball. It's also the fact that if I do 1 or 11 into an iceball it doesnt work and that every time I summon a drone, I know my shit damage turns into diarrhea.

So yes, you can still play him and beat many people with him but it's a huge struggle (as opposed to a more fair fight) against a lot of the cast or if your playing against someone that's good.
I feel like I'm in good company, siding with REO, in thinking this character is still viable. If that's what we can infer from his releasing of this guide, anyway.