Match-up Discussion - Unbreakable What's wrong with me?

[boba_buster]

I don't understand this , all the characters that people say are good or top tier or bad match ups for sub, I have no problem with. Lao , lui , kenshi ,Tanya. Lol Tanya fights are so easy. But every character that people say suck , scorpion , ermac and takeda etc. I get destroyed by , I think is has a lot to do with lag online because those three especialy I can never seem to punish when playing online but when I go to training mode or play offline I have no problem. Takeda especially has been giving me hella problems

 

[Generalbit]

Whoever said ermac sucked.... Dont listen to them

 

[boba_buster]

And what about takeda ? Everything I read online about him says he's bottom tier but I cannot for the life of me figure out how? Don't get me wrong I know his start up is slow but god damn once he gets going it's rediqulous .

 

[boba_buster]

Scorpion is really aggrovating because I know exactly what to do to put him down but I always seem to screw it up

 

[Deleted member 9158]

I just suck against even the worst sub players. That and liu kangs.

 

[errormacro7]

GIT GUD.

You shouldn't be taking online into account at all because it's butt cheeks and has a lot of input delay. Don't use that as a standard to measure how good you are, buddy.

 

[ATIWAB]

And what about takeda ? Everything I read online about him says he's bottom tier but I cannot for the life of me figure out how? Don't get me wrong I know his start up is slow but god damn once he gets going it's rediqulous .

Takeda is bottom tier because he has shit wakeups, no reliable corner escape and extremely slow startups.

If you're losing to Takeda as Sub, it's because you're abusing slide and getting punished, throwing out raw ice balls and eating a tele or air spear on read, stuff like that. Unbreakable also gives you NO real advantage in that matchup, play Grandmaster and use Ice Clones to punish any raw tele with full combo. Mix up your highs-lows and always end your combos with standup so you can resume 50/50 game immediately without him tech rolling away and eating you alive at mid-screen with B21/Kunai.

 

[Generalbit]

Unbreakable also gives you NO real advantage in that matchup, play Grandmaster and use Ice Clones to punish any raw tele with full combo. Mix up your highs-lows and always end your combos with standup so you can resume 50/50 game immediately without him tech rolling away and eating you alive at mid-screen with B21/Kunai.

The Unbreakable ice parry is the only move to my knowledge that can parry takedas whips at max range. Freezing takeda from up to full screen because his long range moves like that are reactable and slow enough to parry. While the other variations are clearly better, Unbreakable does have some redeeming qualities

 

[LaidbackOne]

Learn the gaps takeda have so you can parry them. Remember he can also cancel to kunai so its pretty risky so dont overuse it. Other than that, most of his long range strings cant hit you while you jump so take that into account. If you block air spear, even far from him, just run up and punish, its like -1500000 on block. Also, don't bother with playing unbreakable, just:
1. use grandmaster
2. corner him
3. ???
4. profit

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Ermac is a god online, probably the best character in the game online


Anyone with a 50/50 is gunna have a really good time against Unbreakable. Online just makes it worse.

Also, balance isn't THAT bad that you should expect to win just because your opponent is playing Takeda. Unbreakable Sub isn't that much higher on the tierings, if at all, lol.

 

[RM Ree]

- Scorpion doesn't suck. He's got hands down the best air to air option in the game, can confirm good damage off any stray hit and has a great vortex. Not only that, but he's probably the easiest character to use in the game.
- Ermac doesn't suck. He has unsafe 50/50's, but one successful confirm does ~40%, no problem. He's a glass canon, and can punish clone on reaction. Not to mention trading with his projectile hurts more than any other fireball trade in the game.
- Takeda doesn't suck. He's got safe full screen 50/50's, and he basically ignores ice clone with his teleport and long range normals. His damage output is great, and he has strong gimmicks with air teleport and ex shuriken.
- Don't disregard online play. It's a substitute for real experience and should be taken with a grain of salt, but not a single person on this site can say they haven't learned something constructive online. ESL popularity is proof that netplay is legit. Legit enough to pay substantial money to the winners anyway.

If you aren't already, consider using Cryomancer in these match ups. Grandmaster is always a good choice, but given how each of these trouble characters can beat clone relatively easily (and thinking about damage you could do per confirm/ punish/ armor option) I feel like Cryo is a stronger option. Ermac and Scorpion have to commit to their mix ups leading to potent, meterless punishes. Takeda is the in between where either variation seems fine.

 

[DarksydeDash]

Online is never the real game. Also online competition is pretty bad. You can win by mashing your character's best poke.

 

[RM Ree]

People who think that way are going to slowly become the minority as Internet gets better. Japan's fiber systems are almost latency free at this point and the rest of the world won't be far behind.

It's convenient to blame netplay for mistakes, but rarely are they mistakes that define matches. Reads weigh in heavier than reactions, that's a shift for sure. Online play is an adjustment, but even if we're talking about what's more prevalent, it's absolutely the real game.

 

[StealthyMuffin]

Takeda doesn't suck.

 

[StealthyMuffin]

And what about takeda ? Everything I read online about him says he's bottom tier but I cannot for the life of me figure out how? Don't get me wrong I know his start up is slow but god damn once he gets going it's rediqulous .

Do you know the gaps? No? Learn the gaps. If you have meter, you've already won the match. I definitely recommend switching to Cyro. Takeda has to eat EX Hammer every time you block.

 

[ATIWAB]

- Takeda doesn't suck. He's got safe full screen 50/50's, and he basically ignores ice clone with his teleport and long range normals.

- 24 frame startup on our b2 overhead with huge recovery time on block is not safe and is also not full screen. Sub can avoid b2 with a backdash like anyone else and block low if it's b21 db1f.
- "Ignores ice clone on teleport?" Try dashing in front of it when you see Takeda drop to his knee bud, some pro Sub Zero tips for you.

 

[RM Ree]

Bad artists blame their tools.

- 24 frame startup on our b2 overhead with huge recovery time on block is not safe and is also not full screen. Sub can avoid b2 with a backdash like anyone else and block low if it's b21 db1f.
- "Ignores ice clone on teleport?" Try dashing in front of it when you see Takeda drop to his knee bud, some pro Sub Zero tips for you.

I don't mean to insult your intelligence, but not many characters have an answer to Takeda's max range b21 xx kunai, and it's about as full screen as the ex icy slide that punishes it. SZ is one of the only characters capable of punishing this, making it "basically safe."

Also back dash usually gets you hit by the 1 in the b21 string. Distance/ meter pending, this turns into about 40% if Takeda hit confirms ex spear. Not terrific advice.

Also also, teleport beats clone on reaction off any string but f4. Beyond that, he can make Sub block with normals. Your advice about forward dashing seems okay up until Takeda cancels the teleport and blows you up. Not to mention that a pretty tight window to react to unless you're specifically looking for it. Njp is the better option as I beats ex teleport in the same situation and keeps SZ safe in the event of a cancel. Thanks anyway for the uhm... "pro tips."

 

[I GOT HANDS]

People who think that way are going to slowly become the minority as Internet gets better. Japan's fiber systems are almost latency free at this point and the rest of the world won't be far behind.

It's convenient to blame netplay for mistakes, but rarely are they mistakes that define matches. Reads weigh in heavier than reactions, that's a shift for sure. Online play is an adjustment, but even if we're talking about what's more prevalent, it's absolutely the real game.

I disagree with this bit a little, I mean often you can learn mistakes and plays to avoid can't blame everything on lag, however in the example of Ermac, who I can punish every time offline but NEVER online, I think it's ok to rule out losses to the unsafe God as nothing to worry about, but focus on improving footsies and giving him less opportunities.

- 24 frame startup on our b2 overhead with huge recovery time on block is not safe and is also not full screen. Sub can avoid b2 with a backdash like anyone else and block low if it's b21 db1f.
- "Ignores ice clone on teleport?" Try dashing in front of it when you see Takeda drop to his knee bud, some pro Sub Zero tips for you.[/QUOTE
So you can punish clone on reaction even off cancels it's pretty frigging sweet lol. I think unbreakable is better for this match up since he can

So you can punish Ice Clone from most the screen or even off cancels with Teleport owned B2 respectively, it's really not as bad as you say, Takeda does really good against GM. I think this is one of the few match ups in the game where Unbreakable is better, since Clone is so much less effective, Parry can punish whips from range into combo, and a solid defensive game is real effective against Takeda since everything is reactable, meaning Parry isn't a guessing game as much, and chipless block goes a long way. Some pro UNBREAKABLE tips for you.

 

[StealthyMuffin]

Bad artists blame their tools.

Artists know when their tools are broken. FOH

 

[RM Ree]

Lol okay man. I know you're a Ronin player anyway.

@StealthyMuffin hey where are these gaps where Takeda has to eat ex crushing hammer btw?

 

[StealthyMuffin]

I'm both.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

I think the real question when people complain about lag online is, would you REALLY have made the same mistake offline?
Cause alot of players make the same mistakes regardless of whether or not its online or not.

 

[HuttonMD]

I think the real question when people complain about lag online is, would you REALLY have made the same mistake offline?
Cause alot of players make the same mistakes regardless of whether or not its online or not.

This is true and you can benefit from online play by figuring out what mistakes you are making and try to learn from it and what you could do differently.
Now when ermac throws out a raw teleport or mileena yolo rolls and you block it and can't punish it then you gotta chalk that up to online bs and not stress about it

 

[RM Ree]

But I mean at what point do you stop blaming yourself and start to blame the connection? It's gotta be pretty high ping to miss either of those punishes. Best to be honest with yourself and always try to give the game the benefit of the doubt. That'll make stronger players in the end.

Now when you're doing a combo you've done 1000 times and the game lag skips hard, making you drop it? That might be lags fault.

 

[HuttonMD]

Yea there's a difference and like you said most ppl won't be honest with themselves and say you know what I fucked up and just own up to losing they would rather blame lag.
But sometimes lag costs you the match like I said earlier if its bad enough I can't punish ermacs teleport then I'm missing out on 30%+ damage every time I block one.
But there not much you can do when it's like that besides either tough it out or move on to next player.