Match-up Discussion My retirement/post-Evo MU chart.

[Hruza Da Bruza]

Can someone break down why the Nightwing match up is so bad? It never really hit me as that terrible of a matchup. I have played Goomba In tournament and even though I lost, it didn't seem 7-3 bad. I also work with Grawlix who I train with offline multiple times a week and it always goes pretty good. I'm thinking that it's only 6-4 wowo, but I'm absolutely willing to listen.

 

[Filipino Man]

Can someone break down why the Nightwing match up is so bad? It never really hit me as that terrible of a matchup. I have played Goomba In tournament and even though I lost, it didn't seem 7-3 bad. I also work with Grawlix who I train with offline multiple times a week and it always goes pretty good. I'm thinking that it's only 6-4 wowo, but I'm absolutely willing to listen.

It's just an endless loop of mixups. The best way to describe it is that Nightwing doesn't get a turn ever. Or a Wonder Woman shouldn't give Nightwing a turn. The stance shit is bullshit. Wonder Woman wins in all stances lol.

Basically, it's hard for Nightwing to get a button in and Diana is just swinging endlessly and there is nothing stopping her

 

[HeroesNZ]

It's just an endless loop of mixups. The best way to describe it is that Nightwing doesn't get a turn ever. Or a Wonder Woman shouldn't give Nightwing a turn. The stance shit is bullshit. Wonder Woman wins in all stances lol.

Basically, it's hard for Nightwing to get a button in and Diana is just swinging endlessly and there is nothing stopping her

Not even D1 D1 D1 D1 D1 D1 D1? After D12 he can swing in staff, and he can also backdash her frametraps in Escrima. It's all down to reads.

 

[Mr Aquaman]

If I had a nickel for every poor sucka I bodied that thought their character 7-3'd ares I would be makin' it wayne!

 

[Filipino Man]

Not even D1 D1 D1 D1 D1 D1 D1? After D12 he can swing in staff, and he can also backdash her frametraps in Escrima. It's all down to reads.

He can't because Wonder Woman will just instant air dash over and in staff if you mistime your d1 even a little, you're eating 40% while Wonder Woman just gets hit back for 2% if she gets hits back.

Risk reward is always in wonder womans favor. Never in nightwings. The only thing he has is Zoning with wing dings and if she makes one read, she wins. (Dash up d2 under them)

 

[HeroesNZ]

He can't because Wonder Woman will just instant air dash over and in staff if you mistime your d1 even a little, you're eating 40% while Wonder Woman just gets hit back for 2% if she gets hits back.

Risk reward is always in wonder womans favor. Never in nightwings. The only thing he has is Zoning with wing dings and if she makes one read, she wins. (Dash up d2 under them)

If there's one thing Nightwing players are good at, it's pressing D1 - they won't mistime it. Nightwing can cancel into Staff Spin after the D1, or MB Ground Pound on read for a full combo. After D12 the only thing WoWo can do is MB B3 or backdash.

Another thing Nightwing has in his favour is that he can deal with WoWo's wakeups very well. WoWo has to hold a staff standing 1 on knockdown. She can parry but this is one situation where the risk/reward is in Nightwing's favour. If he standing 1s and she parries then she gets whatever her parry does (Increased damage?). If Nightwing reads correctly and baits the parry then WoWo's eating 43% for 1 Bar. Nightwing can also 2 xx MB Flipkick WoWo on wakeup which beats out Lasso spin. Finally, he can MB B/F3 which is okay because if it hits he gets 38% or so, and if she blocks he's still plus.

Staff D2 is really good for dealing with instant air dashes, as is Jump Back 2 and Jump Back 1.

I agree with you in the sense that WoWo has the advantage, but I just feel as though Nightwing has enough tools to prevent him from getting utterly bodied.

 

[Filipino Man]

If there's one thing Nightwing players are good at, it's pressing D1 - they won't mistime it. Nightwing can cancel into Staff Spin after the D1, or MB Ground Pound on read for a full combo. After D12 the only thing WoWo can do is MB B3 or backdash.

Another thing Nightwing has in his favour is that he can deal with WoWo's wakeups very well. WoWo has to hold a staff standing 1 on knockdown. She can parry but this is one situation where the risk/reward is in Nightwing's favour. If he standing 1s and she parries then she gets whatever her parry does (Increased damage?). If Nightwing reads correctly and baits the parry then WoWo's eating 43% for 1 Bar. Nightwing can also 2 xx MB Flipkick WoWo on wakeup which beats out Lasso spin. Finally, he can MB B/F3 which is okay because if it hits he gets 38% or so, and if she blocks he's still plus.

Staff D2 is really good for dealing with instant air dashes, as is Jump Back 2 and Jump Back 1.

I agree with you in the sense that WoWo has the advantage, but I just feel as though Nightwing has enough tools to prevent him from getting utterly bodied.

Flip kick whiffs on her crouching in lasso stance. If she parried you, you're taking 45% no bar.

the risk reward is still in her favor and d2 is not good against her instant air dashes. The only thing he can do is scatter bomb and it's super inconsistent and that's definitely a shitty move. If a Wonder Woman instant airdashers at a point where you can jump back 2 or jump back1 you're not dealing with the instant airdashes I'm talking about.

We can run it. Beating Nightwing players is my hobby. Isn't that right @RM Chongo?

 

[Shaazzyam]

It's not 7-3 levels. Blocking Wonder Woman isn't even the hard part in the MU. It's actually being able to open her. Staff d2 does blow up IA dashes.

 

[Filipino Man]

It's not 7-3 levels. Blocking Wonder Woman isn't even the hard part in the MU. It's actually being able to open her. Staff d2 does blow up IA dashes.

It doesn't. You're taking a huge risk even going for it is a problem.

It's a match of risks for NW while Wonder Woman just does what she wants. A concept of risk/reward is necessary to see why this match is really bad, just like Wonder Woman doomsday.

 

[Qwark28]

You people haven't played any good wowos and still won't accept what someone who has is telling you?

 

[Hruza Da Bruza]

I can see where you're coming from. It sucks you're retiring man. I would have loved to get some games in with you and really run this matchup.

I agree that blocking isn't the hardest part and the whole blowing up her on wake-up isn't really a point. Anybody can blow up her wake ups so that's no real difference between other characters. The hardest part is finding your place to poke and start your offence (Just like playing against NW himself) I will have to hit the lab and try to figure it out. I definitely appreciate the breakdown.

 

[Relaxedstate]

WW doesn't lose 3-7 to Zod...that is pretty sensational. It is a 4-6 at worst. She has a lot of ways to deal with his zoning and trait that other chars (which are real 3-7s) simply do not have. (air dash and parry a few among them). Also, Zod has no safe wakeups so one knock down in the corner and you can get all that life back you lost getting zoned out.

 

[Shaazzyam]

I don't think NW struggles that bad in MUs where he isn't zoned out. I can't see it being 7-3. Guess we'll just have to disagree.

You people haven't played any good wowos and still won't accept what someone who has is telling you?

Ah, yes, all-knowing Quark is here to share wisdom with us all.


The thing is, I have played Filipinoman. We go even.

 

[Filipino Man]

I don't think NW struggles that bad in MUs where he isn't zoned out. I can't see it being 7-3.




Ah, yes, all-knowing Quark is here to share wisdom with us all.


The thing is, I have played Filipinoman. We go even.

The thing is your Nightwing doesn't go even at all the last 3x we've played. It gets bopped. Your (online) Martian goes even.

The only thing that can make the match up close to 6-4 is if you get Gotham alley or hall of justice

 

[Filipino Man]

WW doesn't lose 3-7 to Zod...that is pretty sensational. It is a 4-6 at worst. She has a lot of ways to deal with his zoning and trait that other chars (which are real 3-7s) simply do not have. (air dash and parry a few among them). Also, Zod has no safe wakeups so one knock down in the corner and you can get all that life back you lost getting zoned out.

Actually I'm mostly unfamiliar with that match. The matches I'm not 100% on are zod, cyborg and lobo probably, but from the times I've played them those are the numbers I see and I can't see WoWo getting on iazb

 

[HeroesNZ]

Flip kick whiffs on her crouching in lasso stance. If she parried you, you're taking 45% no bar.

the risk reward is still in her favor and d2 is not good against her instant air dashes. The only thing he can do is scatter bomb and it's super inconsistent and that's definitely a shitty move. If a Wonder Woman instant airdashers at a point where you can jump back 2 or jump back1 you're not dealing with the instant airdashes I'm talking about.

We can run it. Beating Nightwing players is my hobby. Isn't that right @RM Chongo?

I'm talking about if she parried Nightwing's staff standing 1. Even if she does, Nightwing's completely safe. MB Flipkick doesn't whiff on WoWo so he's safe on that as well. I play EU PS3 so there's no way we can run it unfortunately

 

[Shaazzyam]

The thing is your Nightwing doesn't go even at all the last 3x we've played. It gets bopped. Your (online) Martian goes even.

The only thing that can make the match up close to 6-4 is if you get Gotham alley or hall of justice

Idk usually used both characters in our sets. Never just did 1 straight NW.

Also lol at you saying "online". As if those online instant air dashes didn't help you either.

 

[Qwark28]

this gon b gud

 

[Filipino Man]

this gon b gud

No it's not gonna be good. I have no reason to argue with someone with no results y'know? I'll have a discussion about MUs, in a friendly manner, but not when someone lies about scores with me.

The only NW that did well against me was sajam and murk, but they hella struggle with WoWo even on alley. It's just that hard.

 

[Qwark28]

shieeeeeet.

 

[Youphemism]

I'm talking about if she parried Nightwing's staff standing 1. Even if she does, Nightwing's completely safe. MB Flipkick doesn't whiff on WoWo so he's safe on that as well. I play EU PS3 so there's no way we can run it unfortunately

Wonder Womans parry has two effects:
1. Increased damage for as long as her bracelets glow
2. Removes all blockstun from the move Wonder Woman has just parried

Therefore saying Nightwing is safe after a parried standing 1 is wrooooong

 

[ForeverKing]

2 - 8 vs Aquaman
6 - 4 vs. Bane
5 -5 vs. Cyborg
7 - 3 vs. Doomsday
5 - 5 vs. Green Arrow
6 - 4 vs. Green Lantern
7 - 3 vs. Killer Frost
4 - 6 vs. Lex Luthor
4 - 6 vs. Sinestro
3 - 7 vs. Zod

I agree with most of your matchup chart except the above

She definitely has a hard time vs Aquaman, but 2-8 is a stretch. That's like a Cyborg vs MMH matchup number. It's hard for her to knock him down but when she does she abuses his bad wakeups and fucks him up in the corner. I'd say 4-6

Bane is a really good character and fucks WoWo up on oki. I play this matchup with my brother alot. NEVER use shield stance in this matchup or else it becomes like 2-8 lol. Basically this match is both characters want to corner their opponent, I wouldn't say either character has the advantage tho. 5-5

Cyborg does zone pretty well but once WW gets in she fucks him up pretty bad. All she really has to do is get the life lead then parry all his zoning, and she takes 0 damage and gains meter. You can easily react to all of Cyborg's zoning with parry. 6-4

Doomsday gets beat but his footsies are so good with d1 and MB shoulder it can be hard to approach him sometimes. Noobe plays this matchup extremely well. She does have parry for shoulders tho abuses his bad wakeups. 6-4

Arrow is so ass. He is just a really bad character. Once you start reacting to his mixups he will pretty much never open you up. People say he zones out WoWo but his zoning can't be any worse the Raven MMH Zod etc. So what if he hits you with a couple fire arrows you're gonna destroy him when you get in. 6-4

Lantern's footsies are so good! His b1 can be a problem. He can't zone vs many characters but WoWo is one of the characters he can zone against and it can become tedious. 5-5

Killer Frost has vortex and decent zoning so it's kind of hard to say WW has that much of an advantage. When I fight KF I see it as a fight of who can touch who first and put the other in their blender. WoWo's post-slide game isn't the best. 5-5

Lex Luther is a tough matchup. I feel like this a very momentum based matchup. If you let Lex zone you out and start putting all his shit on the screen it can be really tough, you just can't let Lex get the momentum. But if WoWo sticks to him like glue and rushes him down so that he can't even throw anything out, it can also be hell for Lex. 5-5

Sinestro zoning can be annoying. I've played this matchup with P2W alot. It s....

I'll finish this when I get back

 

[Shaazzyam]

No it's not gonna be good. I have no reason to argue with someone with no results y'know? I'll have a discussion about MUs, in a friendly manner, but not when someone lies about scores with me.

The only NW that did well against me was sajam and murk, but they hella struggle with WoWo even on alley. It's just that hard.

Why so defensive? Relax. I didn't even give any numbers, I just said we go even... which we do.

If you think it's 7-3, then that's your thing brah

 

[HeroesNZ]

Wonder Womans parry has two effects:
1. Increased damage for as long as her bracelets glow
2. Removes all blockstun from the move Wonder Woman has just parried

Therefore saying Nightwing is safe after a parried standing 1 is wrooooong

Actually, I'm right because WoWo can't punish the standing 1 at that range.

 

[Youphemism]

Actually, I'm right because WoWo can't punish the standing 1 at that range.

At what range?