Question - Dragons Fire Was Liu (slightly) over-nerfed?

[Phosferrax]

Firstly, this is not about the block infinite, obviously it had to go.

Liu Kang has received several small nerfs that although appear minor, may have a big impact on him.

He now has a relatively slow d1 at 9 frames, his d3 was given an extra start-up frame, f1 is now no longer a 5f jab (although it seems that no one has 5 frame normals anymore) his b1 is now 9 frames instead of 8, and his stand 1 is 8 frames instead of 7.

f21 is now neutral on block instead of +2, but I don't think plus on block normals are generally intended across the cast anyway.

Edit: it appears that f21 is still plus on block.

The biggest issue is that although mb flying kick is still plus on block, it is only +2, and considering his fastest mid is 9 frames, this means that anyone with a 7f or faster poke will always trade with any move that Kang can do. So I can use a bar to be plus but not actually do anything with my plus frames.

So along with the mb flying kick nerf, he has been given a nerf to his speed as well for some reason. Imo the mb flying kick should be +4, so everything up close can be back dashed, and the b2 can interrupted on a read.

Anyone have any thoughts?

 

[HeroesNZ]

They added 1 to the startup frames of every move in the game.

 

[xXstealthflameXx]

^That and you're actually incorrect. Something +2 is actually +3 if the opponent is using a special move reversal and +4 is the opponent is using a normal.

 

[Mr Aquaman]

no

 

[coolwhip]

Wait, were these frame data changes or legit nerfs? If so, are there any patch notes?

 

[Youphemism]

They added 1 to the startup frames of every move in the game.

Uh no that's not true, all of Shinnok's normals for one thing are still the same on startup. The block advantages went down by 1 and cancel advantages went up by 1 however...

 

[Phosferrax]

They added 1 to the startup frames of every move in the game.

Not all, but to a lot.

 

[Phosferrax]

^That and you're actually incorrect. Something +2 is actually +3 if the opponent is using a special move reversal and +4 is the opponent is using a normal.

Shit I keep forgetting about all that shit. Although does a reversal even add the extra frame? I thought they came out on the frame, otherwise Kung Lao wouldn't be able to punish punchwalk for example.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

They added 1 to the startup frames of every move in the game.

Kung Lao is still the same.

 

[HeroesNZ]

Kung Lao is still the same.

On mine, Tempest Lao's EX Spin now has 5f startup. But yeah, it looks like a lot of moves have had a frame added to them, but not all.

 

[kaseyk]

I think we got the bad luck of the first nerf bat , damn infinite fucked us ...

I notice a speed change aswell , his poke game sucks and b2 is super punishable on block .

Db2 cant be used after f44 on females and randomly , and other turd things we have gone over .

Wish they had fixed him before nerfing him . Hes the only character i like , hope the dlc suit me because as is hes not in a Good spot .

 

[Ugodimak]

Damn, why did they shit on Liu like this?

 

[Phosferrax]

I think we got the bad luck of the first nerf bat , damn infinite fucked us ...

I notice a speed change aswell , his poke game sucks and b2 is super punishable on block .

Db2 cant be used after f44 on females and randomly , and other turd things we have gone over .

Wish they had fixed him before nerfing him . Hes the only character i like , hope the dlc suit me because as is hes not in a Good spot .

I don't think b2 can be punished, for a combo. It has too much pushback. People like Sub and Reptile will get a slide at most on a reversal.

 

[SidTheHaze]

no

Didn't you lose to ray riazy's liu kang?

 

[The Bearded Dan]

When did this happen? Has there been patch notes.


Also no.

 

[STRYKIE]

I currently can't patch my PS4, can someone tell me what his block infinite was? I just wanna check it out for the lulz.

 

[Dizzy]

At some point recently, there was a massive amount of move list frama data updates. Most moves start up frame data listing were updated.

A common problem was many normals and specials was that the start up was off by 1.

These werent gameplay tweaks, just updates to the move list the in-game frame data listing more accurate.

P.S. One thing is for sure though, the dragon kick MB block advantage was reduced to remove the infinite.

 

[Phosferrax]

So it appears that f21 is still +2 on block, so all is right with the world again.

Although for people who don't think so, why?

I am of the opinion that Liu Kang is a solid character, but very honest. He has no dirt at all, and I felt like some of these frame data changes were unnecessary.

 

[jozuvloke]

He should be plus on block for every move huh! Get outta here!

 

[Phosferrax]

At some point recently, there was a massive amount of move list frama data updates. Most moves start up frame data listing were updated.

A common problem was many normals and specials was that the start up was off by 1.

These werent gameplay tweaks, just updates to the move list the in-game frame data listing more accurate.

P.S. One thing is for sure though, the dragon kick MB block advantage was reduced to remove the infinite.

Do you know why they took all 5f normals out of the game? I remember Paulo specifically saying that his f1 was 5 frames, and a lot of other characters who had 5f normals are now at 6f.

 

[Phosferrax]

He should be plus on block for every move huh! Get outta here!

Definitely what I was saying... Glad to see you got the message of the OP.

 

[kaseyk]

I don't think b2 can be punished, for a combo. It has too much pushback. People like Sub and Reptile will get a slide at most on a reversal.

My bad b2 is only a little punishable not super punishable lol everyone can d3 it on block some can special punish and kung lao can full combo punish .
All suck because getting knocked , or hit free

 

[SidTheHaze]

So it appears that f21 is still +2 on block, so all is right with the world again.

Although for people who don't think so, why?

I am of the opinion that Liu Kang is a solid character, but very honest. He has no dirt at all, and I felt like some of these frame data changes were unnecessary.

Unnecessary? I mean cmon bro, without the block infinite he's still neutral/plus on everything, the only thing your negative on is your flying kick and the dragon punch ( I think). Whatever "nerf" he got doesn't even matter honestly.

 

[Dizzy]

Do you know why they took all 5f normals out of the game? I remember Paulo specifically saying that his f1 was 5 frames, and a lot of other characters who had 5f normals are now at 6f.

"5f" startup normals (before the update) hit on frame 7. So they technically were never in the game at release.

If you mean what he mentioned in Liu Kangs reveal that his f1 was the fastest move on the game, maybe it was changed for balance reasons and actually used to be, who knows. Like they said, all the stuff shown in those reveals was subject to change.

The in-game frame data was likely updated to be less confusing as all other FGs startup is 1f before impact (active frames starting) as opposed to 2f.

 

[kaseyk]

He should be plus on block for every move huh! Get outta here!

Noone should be plus on everything , but they should atleast have a few safe options .
Right now liu doesn't have many and even less against small characters .

He doesn't convert for Good damage on his safe options , he doesn't convert off AA if you get an AA lol . Hes got poor wakeups .
He has a very linear game plan really , his mobility feels solid but he is lacking in some very important areas .

Bright side is the game is young and plenty will change , be patched , tweaked , and we have a ton to learn still