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UPDATED:every injustice mu number+Tier list

kevkopdx

Noob
It's generally agreed on that it's 6-4, levitate punishing slide doesn't really mean anything when she can just jump back anyway. The problem is that KF's zoning generally beats Zat's because it's faster, and she can reversal punish trance with iceberg. I'm not sure I agree that Zat vortex is better. Most of Zat's options are punishable on block, whilst KF's aren't.
what i mean is that i tend to jump a LOT during this mu, if she ever slides i am ready to hit levitate at which point you can easily punish with d3 into db3 which is 23% on its own... you can really force a kf player to stop using one of her best moves... i really dont think its a losing mu, maybe @deg222 can chime in... i dunno i say solid 5-5.. nevermind i see deg commented above
 

7L

Heads up!
That's pretty mean. I don't like intentionally misleading other players. I remember him not liking the match but if he hears that from a reputable Raven player such as yourself I can see why he would believe you. Maybe he figured as a Raven player you knew something that he didn't.

And I guess it's confirmed that you and ray have some history lol.
Nah raven beats him. Got to play glass sword alot at wb. If arrow gets her to the corner its decent but there's a problem. You can't get her there easily lol
 

Cossner

King of the Jobbers 2015
Administrator
The reason why I think it's relevant is because those guys main those characters and know them better than cowboy does. I think that's reasonable to assume. If they actually learned the match up they would probably recognize things that Cowboy doesn't know which could influence the match up numbers.

I'm just here to debate how I feel about the match. You don't consistently play any Arrow besides Cowboy, I'm not mentioning doughnut because you use Cowboy as your reference for the match. I think I have a fair understanding of the match but you dispute that Ray isn't good enough. I dispute that Cowboy probably doesn't know that character in and out. I just don't see how what you say is automatically accepted and what I say is just shot down.

I would love to see more of you guys playing and see how the match actually plays out between the 2 of you. I do thin she has the advantage but not 7-3. I don't see her limiting options like other characters do. I can actually do things if I make the right decision.
The only Raven I've played that knows how to exploit the MU is Blindman. I've played long, long sets with other Ravens and no one has literally shut me down like him. That's why I say it's 8-2. 1) GA can't wake up. 2) He can't zone. 3) He can't rushdown. 4) When Raven has trait all you can do is block. 5) Damage output favors Raven. 6) Full screen trait Raven destroys him.

The only 2 out of that 8-2 is because Raven wake up game sucks. But besides that there's not much you can do. :(
 

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
The only Raven I've played that knows how to exploit the MU is Blindman. I've played long, long sets with other Ravens and no one has literally shut me down like him. That's why I say it's 8-2. 1) GA can't wake up. 2) He can't zone. 3) He can't rushdown. 4) When Raven has trait all you can do is block. 5) Damage output favors Raven. 6) Full screen trait Raven destroys him.

The only 2 out of that 8-2 is because Raven wake up game sucks. But besides that there's not much you can do. :(
What is it specifically that stops him when he's actually up close?
 

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
Literally walking backwards. No joke ask blindman.
Plus d1, b23, grab...
But from that range aren't arrows viable to slow down his back walk? Can it be reflected on reaction? Also mb slide to get in at advantage or even knock to the corner? You get 3 free dashes after one is landed which brings her to the corner where she can't walk back.

Just would like to know if those things actually work.
 

Cossner

King of the Jobbers 2015
Administrator
But from that range aren't arrows viable to slow down his back walk? Can it be reflected on reaction? Also mb slide to get in at advantage or even knock to the corner? You get 3 free dashes after one is landed which brings her to the corner where she can't walk back.

Just would like to know if those things actually work.
She can SC you on reaction to your arrows. Stinger is the best tool in the MU but it's very easy to block. Corner is your best shot but she can just be patient and switch sides.
 

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
She can SC you on reaction to your arrows. Stinger is the best tool in the MU but it's very easy to block. Corner is your best shot but she can just be patient and switch sides.
Understood. So it's easy to SC on reaction to arrow up close? No way to bait a sc? That does sound like shit if that's the case.
 

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
She can SC you on reaction to your arrows. Stinger is the best tool in the MU but it's very easy to block. Corner is your best shot but she can just be patient and switch sides.
Waaaait a sec. SC on reaction around footsie range? I don't have the best reactions but that seems a little insane. I think that's more of a read from a pattern than a reaction. Can anyone else confirm this? Soul crush start up is 13 frames and arrow is 22. Not saying that it changes the number but if she cant SC on reaction to arrow what does she do to shut him down up close?
 

Cossner

King of the Jobbers 2015
Administrator
Waaaait a sec. SC on reaction around footsie range? I don't have the best reactions but that seems a little insane. I think that's more of a read from a pattern than a reaction. Can anyone else confirm this? Soul crush start up is 13 frames and arrow is 22. Not saying that it changes the number but if she cant SC on reaction to arrow what does she do to shut him down up close?
You're highly overrating GA's up close pressure lol. And yeah, 22 frames is slow af. If it trades, you're in no advantage at all. B23 takes you full screen. Trait let's her pressure you safely as long as she wants to. Her pokes are decent and her backwards speed is great. What else does she need?
 

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
You're highly overrating GA's up close pressure lol. And yeah, 22 frames is slow af. If it trades, you're in no advantage at all. B23 takes you full screen. Trait let's her pressure you safely as long as she wants to. Her pokes are decent and her backwards speed is great. What else does she need?
I wasn't stating anything but the fact that she can't reaction sc. In order for it to even trade you have to predict it.