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General/Other - Sub-Zero Thoughts on these Sub-Zero Buffs? (Community feedback please?)

DarksydeDash

You know me as RisingShieldBro online.
So far, Sub Zero has only received "nerfs," particularly targeting his most played variation: Grandmaster. Now that the game has developed quite a bit in the months its been out, it is about time for the SZ community to speak out on his flaws across ALL variations so he may keep up with the meta game. Of course, there will be many to disagree as the blue ninja is severely hated by the majority of the FGC, but if their character got buffed (and they most likely did) then why not ours? Post what you want and opinions of these buffs below! No SZ haters please.


Grandmaster Buffs:

  • Ice clone no longer disappears during clone toss.
- Why? I'm sure everyone who has fought who played GM has had a time where they have seen Sub Zero throw NOTHING and get punished for it. This buff is plain and simple: the sub zero player shouldn’t have to worry when performing a special move. In addition, this looks extremely glitchy.


  • Ice clone hitbox adjusted to combo correctly on both genders.
-Why? GM is pne of the only characters in the game who has to adjust his bnbs for particular genders. Sexist much? If his other variations’ bnbs don’t change, and neither does most of the the cast, why must GM? Honestly, no character should have gender specific combos.


  • Ice Clone and Ice Statue come out consistently on block/hit, OR Ice Statue now takes two hits to break.
-Why? As Tom “the god” Brady said: “what is the point of this move?” Even though this is a design choice, it is very poor. The functionality of a special move is to come out when the motion is performed on block or hit. Sub Zero has to spend a bar to keep himself safe but he can’t even do that when the special move can not be performed as its intended purpose. This brings me to the other suggestion: making ice statue (enhanced ice clone) take two hits to break. If Sub Zero can’t make himself safe, by spending a bar, he should be able to work with his biggest strength: the corner trap. At the cost of a bar, Sub Zero would be able to trade projectiles with less worry and maintain his corner game. Obviously this buff is highly debatable as this would make armoring out of the corner no longer an option. But then again characters like, Erron Black, Kung Lao, Lui Kang, Shinnok, Tanya, etc. are able to trap you in the corner with pressure as well. Still, this buff can definitely be seen as too much.




Cryomancer Buffs:

  • The Cold Blooded String becomes + on hit.
-Why? Cryomancer is SZ’s most meter dependent variation and has no way of building bar as he lacks the specials to do so; no clone, no ice aura, etc. To put it simple, if you don’t have meter you ain’t getting no where. Adding + frames on hit is a necessary buff as it allows Sub to be rewarded for finally landing a hit while making it still possible for your opponent to have the option to armor out or backdash, just like grandmaster. In its current state, the Cold Blooded string is neutral on hit, meaning your opponent has every option in the world; jump, armor, back dash, poke, etc. Why should the Sub Zero player be seemingly "punished" for taking such a huge risk and finishing a combo when other characters like shinnok are not? Simple, he shouldn’t.


  • Throat slice (F1,2,2) becomes safer on block.
-Why? This string was obviously set up to be a variation combo starter for CM but there is one problem… It is -9 on block. Sure, it’s cancelable, but why would you when everything you can cancel into is just as negative, even when MB’d. The string has great range so you would think it would make a great footsie tool as well, but there is nothing to buffer into on whiff since all his specials whiff. This string is easily hit confirmable as well so it is not like it needs to be special cancelable. For a variation specific string to be used, it needs to have purpose and at the moment, it has none.


  • Quick Slice (1,1,1,) combos into all specials.
-Why? Well.. What is the point of this string? It is an additional string that is safe on block at -5 but it isn’t even worth using. This special seems like it is meant to be hit confirmed but it doesn’t combo into any of CM’s specials except MB Ice Ball. If you want me to use a variation specific string, then I better be able to cancel it into VARIATION SPECIFIC SPECIALS, especially at the cost of a bar.


  • Frost Hammer comes out faster and becomes safe on block while Crushing Hammer keeps its current speed becomes + on block
-Why? This special is reactable, unsafe, and has a gap that can be poked, back dashed, or armored through. If the opponent blocks a move as slow as this, Sub Zero should be safe or able to swing again at the cost of bar with such a meter dependent variation. Think war god kotal kahn and his sword toss.


Unbreakable Buffs:

  • Barrier of Frost and Barrier of Ice recovery frames reduced.
-Why? This variation suffers from your opponent waiting. Of course that’s normal but when you make a read and your opponent as so much time to punish you, it is often hard to call this variation “unbreakable.” At less recovery frames the opponent can still be patience and punish but they won’t nearly get away with waiting as before. Also, barrier of frost/ice scale heavily in combos so its not like the opponent will lose over 30% if parried.



  • Using Barrier of Frost and Barrier of Ice against a projectile activates Ice Aura.
-Why? For being called “unbreakable” this variation is very much breakable. The variation is meant to be played as the patient one, frustrating your opponent to come to you instead of vice versa. In its current state, using BoF and BoI is pointless because the recovery is long and you will end up getting hit by the next projectile if not block it. This buff would give purpose to shielding projectiles and make it difficult for the opponent to zone Sub Zero out.


  • Using Barrier of Frost and Barrier against a projectile builds meter.
-Why? The move is projectile absorb. Plain in simple it needs to build meter because one, thats what a projectile absorb does, two, again unbreakable is meant to make the opponent come to you. Building meter= Ice Aura which means less damage and no chip. “Unbreakable.”


  • Frost Aura and Ice Aura last 15 seconds instead owill (unnessary but helpful) .
-Why? Helps him again, frustrate opponent, gives more reason to use Ice Aura, and helps him stay “cool.” Basically everything I said before in the other buffs.


Universal:

  • B33 canceled into MB ice ball no longer has a gap.
-Why? The move is negative already and costs a bar. I don't think it is not too much to ask if a negative specnegative no longer has a gap.



Honorable Mentions (as suggested by some of the community):

-Clone toss can be meter burned for armor

-Ice Aura becomes 2n1 cancelable

-Cryomancer gains new ice dagger projectile

- Frost Hammer becomes dash cancelable

-No Pushback on clone shatter

- EX Ice Clone stops disappearing on block

-Ice Clone can be performed in the air

-Ice Aura recovers 5% health at the start of its activation

-Air frost Hammer hits low fullscreen

-D2 in Cryomancer becomes 9 frames (down from 13)

-Cold Blooded string steals meter from the opponent

-While in Ice Aura, ice ball gains its enhanced properties without spending a bar.
 
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I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
Unbreakable - when Ice Shield is up, it's inputs go back to being what they were in the other variations - Ice Burst. This gives him a decent wake up option if he tries to use chipless block and fails against one of the million 50/50s out there - he needs it more than either of the other two variations. It also covers his AA if he took time to set it up, AND adds a bit more option for meter burning a better corner combo. Using this shatter of course breaks the ice aura' around him to do it, meaning you have to set it back up again to do it again.


I feel like this is the only change Unbreakable needs other than smaller frames on the Parry whiff. Go from here and see what this variation can do.

Oh one other thing, ex Aura needs to be changed because as it stands its fcking useless in a game with Breaker. Make the meter burn version do like Scorps Flame Aura properties - a few frames of Freeze Reset, and chip damage from the Ice Shards popping off him.
 

TheIrishFGCguy

Pew pew pew
You're wasting your time. This thread will be hijacked by people who are free to Sub Zero and complain about the community being too vocal despite the fact that this is all within the segregated Sub Zero forum that they don't ever need to interact with. Prepare for an influx of dumbasses, it always happens.

As far as the topic is concerned, honestly I just want to see them do some kind of workaround with this breathing hitbox stuff for the EX Klone. Seems like total nonsense from a balance point of view.
I don't play Unbreakable or Cryomancer that much so I don't feel qualified enough to start suggesting or agreeing with changes on those variations but I have heard that they are noticeably worse than GM, so I guess it would be nice for NRS to take a look at them.
 

DarksydeDash

You know me as RisingShieldBro online.
You're wasting your time. This thread will be hijacked by people who are free to Sub Zero and complain about the community being too vocal despite the fact that this is all within the segregated Sub Zero forum that they don't ever need to interact with. Prepare for an influx of dumbasses, it always happens.

As far as the topic is concerned, honestly I just want to see them do some kind of workaround with this breathing hitbox stuff for the EX Klone. Seems like total nonsense from a balance point of view.
I don't play Unbreakable or Cryomancer that much so I don't feel qualified enough to start suggesting or agreeing with changes on those variations but I have heard that they are noticeably worse than GM, so I guess it would be nice for NRS to take a look at them.
I play all three and trust me, they are bbbbbaaddddd.
 

Kanalratte

aka FROSTIE
i agree on all buffs but fear none will happen. i'm cryo main and it hurts that cold blooded ist neutral on hit. seriously eating kotal kahn's low pokes or KL's spin after the combo is upper BS.
 

Error404

Noob
I agree with all the buffs you suggested except for the honorable metions and b33 comboing midscreen without meter. There are already enough 50/50s .
 
kinda dumb that your "best" combo doesn't work on some characters...but if you think that's ok...lol
Kinda dumb that you think one characters "best" should work on everybody
you new to the fighting game scene or does the MK community all expect to win in all matchups and have everything in their favor in all matchups?
 

Wetdoba

All too easy...
Most of these are pretty reasonable but the wntire "Honorable Mentions Buffs" section should just be deleted as those are absolutely retarded
 

ZeZe

The smart stuff!
I'll keep my suggestions as limited as possible:
- GM: Klone does not go away on block. Simple as that. This comes from "breathing hitboxes will never be adjusted" stand point.
- Cryo: can cancel normal hammer for meter building purpose. Cold blooded combo more advantageous for Sub.
- Unbreakable: reduce recovery on parry + give him some anti air, since parry is not good in that department (ice burst for example).
 
Might be mistaken but doesn't Jax have to adjust what he does vs female/small hurtbox characters?
A lot of characters have to adjust certain combos/strings for certain characters
I find it funny that if one string works well/fine against one character and not so well against another, it needs to be buffed to do well against everyone
Is this what the MK community amounts to?

I get it if you're complaining that it's not doing what it's suppose to such as a mid move being whiffed or ducked under
But complaining because your string is unsafe against some of the cast and saying it should be safe against everyone is fucking hilarious
 

Kanalratte

aka FROSTIE
Kinda dumb that you think one characters "best" should work on everybody
you new to the fighting game scene or does the MK community all expect to win and have everything in their favor in all matchups?
your post indicates you have no clue of cryomancer and how this character works at the moment. but keep posting your nonsense. enlighten us with your gosu wisdom. *sarcasm*
 

Kanalratte

aka FROSTIE
You're wasting your time. This thread will be hijacked by people who are free to Sub Zero and complain about the community being too vocal despite the fact that this is all within the segregated Sub Zero forum that they don't ever need to interact with. Prepare for an influx of dumbasses, it always happens..
you were right. billiard boy is already here LOL