Video/Tutorial - Ferra/Torr The Ferra/Torr Video Thread

[bdizzle2700]

@Yoaks and i's set.
Disclaimer: there was some lag so that explains alot. And we both dont use this variation very often. So our choices may or may not have been optimal. Be nice-ish haha.

 

[Trauma_and_Pain]

If anyone wants to watch these and give me some tips, I'd greatly appreciate it.

It's a tiny one. But after B23,2+4, Run, you can fit a D3 in before F2. It's consistent except when B2 connects from longer range, and I think it adds like 1% or 2%. The trick is to input it early. I'm sure you're aware of how high D3's hitbox actually is.

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

Here is 1bar/1 guess death combo. this also kills if you cancel the last f2 into tuck and charge. just tried it and starting with one PnG stack will guarantee this combo to kill, no bar needed (except the opponents )

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

So here's a set I just played with an online scrub, he took a fair amount of games, but mostly with scorp spamming ji teleports and throws. Not trying to toot my own horn or anything, but this was the first time post guide that made a few days ago where I took what I was teaching and used it in a match, I got some real good punishes and anti wakeups in this video so enjoy, give me feedback, do what you like with it

 

[Trauma_and_Pain]

So here's a set I just played with an online scrub, he took a fair amount of games, but mostly with scorp spamming ji teleports and throws. Not trying to toot my own horn or anything, but this was the first time post guide that made a few days ago where I took what I was teaching and used it in a match, I got some real good punishes and anti wakeups in this video so enjoy, give me feedback, do what you like with it

A lot of these criticisms may not be valid since you're playing online and I don't know what sort of latency you have. The following is assuming zero lag, so just ignore whatever execution doesn't permit:

I notice your combos only do about 22% because you end combos with 2, f4. You would do much more damage with something like b121xx dbf1 or f3, 4xx dbf1. I think Command Grab is almost always the ender you want, and I think you generally should not use EX Command Grab during a combo unless it's going to kill. The damage bonus is just not worth a bar. The EX version is good on wakeup though.

I'm personally not a big fan of how you use EX bf3 from neutral. I think it makes more sense during wakeup or when expecting projectiles.

I would also try using b121xx Ferra Toss Close more. It's a fantastic blockstring for safe pressure. In the corner it's a frame trap, and you could mix it up with xx Bowl Girl too.

I also saw a few standing 3s in that video, and I can't think of any reason to do that unless it was just an input error. Neutral 3 is almost strictly worse than other normals like 4. The only use I've found for it is in a particular corner combo for Lackey because the hitbox is slightly higher.

Other than that, looks like you have a pretty good foundation to me; I think fine tuning is all you need at this point.

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

A lot of these criticisms may not be valid since you're playing online and I don't know what sort of latency you have. The following is assuming zero lag, so just ignore whatever execution doesn't permit:

I notice your combos only do about 22% because you end combos with 2, f4. You would do much more damage with something like b121xx dbf1 or f3, 4xx dbf1. I think Command Grab is almost always the ender you want, and I think you generally should not use EX Command Grab during a combo unless it's going to kill. The damage bonus is just not worth a bar. The EX version is good on wakeup though.

I'm personally not a big fan of how you use EX bf3 from neutral. I think it makes more sense during wakeup or when expecting projectiles.

I would also try using b121xx Ferra Toss Close more. It's a fantastic blockstring for safe pressure. In the corner it's a frame trap, and you could mix it up with xx Bowl Girl too.

I also saw a few standing 3s in that video, and I can't think of any reason to do that unless it was just an input error. Neutral 3 is almost strictly worse than other normals like 4. The only use I've found for it is in a particular corner combo for Lackey because the hitbox is slightly higher.

Other than that, looks like you have a pretty good foundation to me; I think fine tuning is all you need at this point.

Thanks!! yea its online. The reason I was going for 2, f4 was the set up with a hard knockdown (if you watched my guide you would know ), it gives me time to get another PnG out (which imo you NEED to be doing in this variation, once you get one up, successfully pressure and it's pretty easy to keep it going I've found so far), and they're close enough they think that they can stuff it on wakeup. not realizing the armour, I read this guy like a book is why I kept doing it, but in a real better match I'd go for the command grab more often, only problem with that is I'm fullscreen, I can get another PnG sure, but I can do the same when they're close and they're more inclined to use armour, and I don't have to go chase them down after, which just makes me a little antsy.

offline I can get f3 4 way more consistently, but its hard for me online, so I usually go with easier combos for less damage than trying to optimize and dropping it 60% of the time.

pretty sure I was fishing for a brutality on those neutral bf3

I'm glad you brought up the EX command grab, it inspired me to test something. So I just tested the scaling (i guess) using f2, f3, b121xxEXcommand grab
first column is damage up until the command grab (so f2, f3 b121) next is with, and each next row is a stack of PnG

1. 20% - 33% = 13% added by EX Deep Stab (0 stack)
2. 24% - 39% = 15% added by EX Deep Stab (1 stack)
3. 28% - 47% = 19% added by EX Deep Stab (2 stacks)
4. 34% - 57% = 23% added by EX Deep Stab (3 stacks)

So only after two stacks does the damage buff really impact EX. BUT, then I just tested all those with regular command grabs and wasn't any less than 3%-5%, *sigh*, I guess I'll just need to train myself to not burn it, BUT i do like being able to position them, which I think i'll do still if I have close to a second bar or more.

I b121xxLow/OH ferra all the time, I'll even use the plus frames from a neutral ferra toss to get in. I was really focusing on getting PnG cancels out with the 2 b/f4 so I didn't use that string as often. and yes, neutral 3's were all errors.

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

I'm beginning to think that Lackey and Vicious are the ones where you should be aiming for max damage, since the PnG buff can make up for non optimal combos, using 2 f/b4 I'm feeling is the way to go, that way you still get your buff, and they are close enough that either they try and wake up and you eat it, or you mix it up and move in for b2 or f2.(see my guide )

 

[Trauma_and_Pain]

The reason I was going for 2, f4 was the set up with a hard knockdown

The Command Grab is also a hard knockdown. But I think you make a fair argument on the basis of baiting the opponent.

We can get to the bottom of this with math. If we compare:

B23, 2+4, Run, D3, F2, B121xx DBF1 = 29%
B23, 2+4, Run, D3, F2, 2F4 PnG = 24%

PnG hits you for 5%, and if the opponent bites, they are probably hitting you on wakeup for e.g. 5% (even though you armor through it), meaning you are actually taking about 10% damage yourself and doing 5% less damage, so you need to do 15% more damage after using 2F4, PnG to justify it.

The potential for reward is pretty big because if you get a full punish such as PnGxx Run, F2, NJP, 11, B121xx DBF1 = 37%, and your 15% investment paid off. Since the latter combo does a net value of 15% less damage, you would need to trick the opponent into using a punishable wakeup > 40.5% of the time. You could just as well PnG after the 1st combo above (Command Grab ender), but this is assuming your opponent never does a fullscreen wakeup on you after being thrown across the screen.

So then the question is: is the chance of them biting over ~40%? I have no clue. But we could assume the chance is highest when you haven't punished them yet. After a punish or two they should wise up. The chances should also be lower when they have no meter, just on the general principle that wakeup attacks without armor are risky to begin with.

Anyway, after analyzing this way too much, I'll concede that 2F4 as an ender is not wrong, it's just situational. Might even try it myself.

 

[Wetdoba]

As long as Ferra stabs you before they can hit you its a pain n gain set up to me because of the armored recovery. If they have a 1 hit wake up you will be able to absorb it and punish with 11xx PnGC xx F2 for a two stack full combo for roughly 45% at the cost of some health. To me the full combo damage is worth it for this character every time unless in Lackey since he has more legit oki options that dont give up as much damage as 2F4 such as ending in charge for a HKD or roll for a quick stand. being able to end in command grab in Ruthless is so good because its a HKD that leaves us with Ferra on our back afterwards so it leaves us with all of our good ranged options still and now they do more damage. Ruthless definitely needs to end in grab every time in the corner, the options after are just too good and with pain n gains active its lots of unbreakable damage

 

[MK Led]

As long as Ferra stabs you before they can hit you its a pain n gain set up to me because of the armored recovery. If they have a 1 hit wake up you will be able to absorb it and punish with 11xx PnGC xx F2 for a two stack full combo for roughly 45% at the cost of some health. To me the full combo damage is worth it for this character every time unless in Lackey since he has more legit oki options that dont give up as much damage as 2F4 such as ending in charge for a HKD or roll for a quick stand. being able to end in command grab in Ruthless is so good because its a HKD that leaves us with Ferra on our back afterwards so it leaves us with all of our good ranged options still and now they do more damage. Ruthless definitely needs to end in grab every time in the corner, the options after are just too good and with pain n gains active its lots of unbreakable damage

Yeah I almost always go for max damage with ruthless and (especially) vicious. I've heard some people criticise using boss toss in vicious combos and general play, which I don't agree with at all. Obviously there is a limit but I've never been too inconvenienced by it, and besides, its too good a tool to not be using whenever there is an opening for it, and if you're not boss tossing after a 11/b121/etc punish then you are getting poop all damage.

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

?

The Command Grab is also a hard knockdown. But I think you make a fair argument on the basis of baiting the opponent.

We can get to the bottom of this with math. If we compare:

B23, 2+4, Run, D3, F2, B121xx DBF1 = 29%
B23, 2+4, Run, D3, F2, F24 PnG = 24%

PnG hits you for 5%, and if the opponent bites, they are probably hitting you on wakeup for e.g. 5% (even though you armor through it), meaning you are actually taking about 10% damage yourself and doing 5% less damage, so you need to do 15% more damage after using F24, PnG to justify it.

The potential for reward is pretty big because if you get a full punish such as PnGxx Run, F2, NJP, 11, B121xx DBF1 = 37%, and your 15% investment paid off. Since the latter combo does a net value of 15% less damage, you would need to trick the opponent into using a punishable wakeup > 40.5% of the time. You could just as well PnG after the 1st combo above (Command Grab ender), but this is assuming your opponent never does a fullscreen wakeup on you after being thrown across the screen.

So then the question is: is the chance of them biting over ~40%? I have no clue. But we could assume the chance is highest when you haven't punished them yet. After a punish or two they should wise up. The chances should also be lower when they have no meter, just on the general principle that wakeup attacks without armor are risky to begin with.

Anyway, after analyzing this way too much, I'll concede that F24 as an ender is not wrong, it's just situational. Might even try it myself.

I highly suggest it, (I'm pretty sure you mean 2 f4 tho?) sending them fullscreen I think is expected of us, as ferra can prove to be a pretty big obstacle if used well, i know i do that sonetimes. so by dropping them close, the bait is them thinking they can beat the start up on any ferra zoning, or they have wakeup options that can stuff the b121. I think it would be best to go for a few grab enders, let them think "oh, he kept me nearby this time, bad choice" but i highly suggest trying out ending it with 2 f4.

4 Png rc f2 njp f3 2 f4 is 34% so thats optimal damage for this set up, but 4 is high and slow so using 11 is more reliable. anyway, if you can keep your stacks maintained, you have a hard time really getting any combo less that 25%

you do make a really good point about the 5% self inflicted, plus whatever they hit you with you have to eat. there have been a few times I've got a bit buff happy and ending up doing almost a full combo worth of damage to myself.

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

If they have a 1 hit wake up you will be able to absorb it and punish with 11xx PnGC xx F2 for a two stack full combo for roughly 45% at the cost of some health.

if you're doing it right you already have a stack up going into that, so you'll be up three if you can pull it off again

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

So here's a set me and @RyuuJin882 just played today. He also had a BS Shinnok that I didn't get unfortunately.

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

So it's kinda late and I've had an exhausting day so I apologize for how shit this video is. But I realized a little while ago out options for tick throws suck. If anyone has a good explanation for this please enlighten me, but it's beyond me why we can't tick off of strings while other characters can

 

[Barrogh]

If anyone has a good explanation for this please enlighten me, but it's beyond me why we can't tick off of strings while other characters can

Because we have too fast throw and too long blockstuns on strings. You can do it with slow throw (the one of Vicious) and normals with short stuns (d1, 1, b1, f3... none of strings beyond 1st hit as far as I know).

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

Did you watch the video?? Neither lackey or Ruthless can tick off 1, or f3, I didn't try b1 but i don't know why (or how, cuz i suck at inputting command grabs) you would want to do that.

99% sure it's only d1 and d3, I don't even really count vicious as a tick throw as you can freely get out of it, probably could poke it, I'll have to test tomorrow.

 

[Blewdew]

How amazing it would be if we could tick throw during b1212. Erron can do it with 21122 so yeah that would be the shit.

 

[Barrogh]

Did you watch the video?? Neither lackey or Ruthless can tick off 1, or f3, I didn't try b1 but i don't know why (or how, cuz i suck at inputting command grabs) you would want to do that.

99% sure it's only d1 and d3, I don't even really count vicious as a tick throw as you can freely get out of it, probably could poke it, I'll have to test tomorrow.

Did you read my post? I said "slow throw". Only Vicious has slow throw. I even mentioned Vicious right in the post. Other variations don't have ticks to speak of (because doing so off d1/d3... ugh; and chances are, it's uncomfortably negative on hit).

By "and" I meant that both conditions must be fulfilled - having slow throw and short enough blockstun. If that's what was causing confusion.

 

[Asodimazze]

I want to contribute a little to this thread by showing a tournament match in which I used both Kung Jin and Ferra/Torr (you can skip at around 7:00 for the Ferra/Torr matches).

Any constructive advice is welcome!

 

[Doombawkz]

Your videos have inspired me to write about something later. Thanks.

 

[Shade667]

Some Ruthless ranked games I played last night.
The HQT Predator match was abyssmal, so many input errors lol.

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

Some Ruthless ranked games I played last night.
The HQT Predator match was abyssmal, so many input errors lol.

Some feedback for you
Overall you should really always be cancelling b121 into a ferra toss, all the time. If they know the gap and punish it then you'll need to adapt and go for the low (true blockstring I believe), and change when you are cancelling (b12xx), sure the last hit of b1212 is OH, sure its a hard knockdown, but so is the ferra throws, and they do more damage. You should be stacking PnG as much as possible when you're above 60%, anytime you connect dbf1 you have enough time to safely get a stack (unless its 1 stack and they have multi hitting wakeup). You use throws a lot, and very well mind you. I highly recommend incorporating meter burned throws. Our launchers are safe, imo its worth spending a bar for that safe of a bet that can pay out so well. Remember you can always meter burn tuck and charge for that extra stab, and there's a huge window for it so its not even a huge commitment, saved my ass quite a few times.

GM Sub
Anytime a clone comes out in neutral punish it with ferra, same goes for iceballs. Your punishes were pretty weak too, some mid 20% combos could easily have gotten another 10% if you had punished with a png cancel combo (11xxPnG rc f2 njp 4 dbf1 should be like 34-36%). Watching the second sub match at 7:40 you have two bars, blocked a slide and went for a throw, god it hurts me. You could have easliy turned that into 50% or more with a meter burn throw

Shinnok
FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY DON'T NJP IN THE NEUTRAL I have the same problem but hell sparks will 99.999999999999999999% of the time beat you. I'm even hesitant to say attempting to beat the teleport with our njp, as its one of the slowest in the game. It works sometimes, online is tougher, the risk is just pretty high. Again you had some really weak combos here, like 25% percent off an njp.

Scorpion
again, weak punishes. If you see a teleport cancelled (so they just drop in behind you), I saw you caught him with a grab at the end, but d3 should be quick enough to tag them, which puts us a +20 I think so you're free to pick a launcher.

Predator
the only thing you have to respect is d4, pretty much every other option he has we can shit all over, his wake up game is piss, with the exception of the lasers as I think those come out really quick, but they are highs so just d1 to victory, you should almost always be b121 on wake up against pred. I personally would have gone vicious for the HQT matchup as boss toss is much more useful for shutting down the laser zone game. But solid play here as well man.

D'Vorah
For the love of god do not jump in on D'vorah unless you are 100% sure you'll will hit, that bitch has trip guards for days.

and God damn do I love that brutality

 

[Shade667]

Thanks, ive got another 10 or so games I recorded today that Ill be uploading later. Some good matches. Im cracking down on my Ferra torr now, working hard to get better.

 

[Shade667]

the combo damage thing is just my consistency with landing the bigger combos online. Sometimes I cant even do b2,3,2+4, F3, F2. Online in australia is probably worse compared to the rest of yall. So I try for whats guaranteed, and its usually a throw into oki.

Also I was playing nothing but ruthless just to learn matchups. In tournament if I were given the chance I wouldve switched off FT for another character for stuff like predator and scorpion. But for those times where I need to play FT vs them (aka I win and they counter pick and im locked in to FT) I wanted a whole day where I only played my main variation.

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

Biggest area from these vids is just consistent damage. I noticed you use the PnG mostly for pressure, which is good and fine, clearly works well. Most other char's cacnels like that are projectiles, so I can see how people want to just kinda jump into that wagon and ride it. But PnG is way more than that. I tend to use it more for just the damage and to extend combos, I should work on incorporating it into my pressure game. You've got the pressure game down, but once you get the punishes, and mind games that come along with PnG armour, you're gonna be really damn good man. I knew there was a good reason i tagged you in the buff/nerf thread.

I've found b23+4 rc f4 rc b121xx to be pretty easy online, f4 launches them really high, and you'll have to run after them again, and you'll only get the tip of the hurt box on b121. But its doable, practice the spacing offline and it translates pretty well. in ruthless we should always be punishing with a Png cancel combo, there's really no reason not to, 2, 11, and 4 being the best options (4xxpng rc f2, njp, f3, 4xxbf1 is 40% on the first stack, online I usually drop the f3 after the njp) replace dbf1 with another png, and you have enough time to get a third stack out safely.