What's new

General/Other - Reptile REPTILE PATCH 8-31-2015 DISCUSSION

Circus

Part-Time Kano Hostage
Some of the gaps between moves and swipe on block. Gap in frames inside ():

f412 (1) swipe - almost a true blockstring
f41 (12) swipe
f4 (2) swipe
34 (3) swipe
f21 (3) swipe
212 (9) swipe
21 (12) swipe
b1d4 (16) swipe
14 (5) swipe
12~swipe - no gap neither with swipe or pounce
1 (15) swipe
2 (11) swipe
3 (7) swipe
b3 (7) swipe
f3 (2) swipe
d3 (18) swipe
4 (5) swipe
d4 (18) swipe

For pounce, just add 1f to the gap

So 12~swipe is a true blockstring
f412, 34, f21, f3, f4, 14 and 4 with swipe are the strings that are only interrupted with armor.
holy crap, this info is golden. thanks man.
 

huh

Noob
holy crap, this info is golden. thanks man.
You`re welcome. Just keep in mind I used the in-game framedata to calculate it. So its accuracy depends on that info. But it seems pretty much reliable as far as I can see
 

Gesture Required Ahead

Get on that hook
Labbing some stuff. My god Deceptive is sooooooo rideeeeeeekkkooooloooos.

Also guys I recommend to start looking up his Floating Ball stuff. Shit is hella good now.

He's more meter hungry now than before but he now has solid ways to build it with Swipe being safe and his projectiles being not ass.

Man I'm going to miss Noxious but it's hard not to want to use EX Invis.
 

dribirut

BLAK FELOW
I currently am out of town so can't test things but I was curious to know what is the most he can get with two bars now midscreen.

For example how much does

F42 ex invis 34 ex invis f421 dash njp 21 f421 slide do?
 

4x4lo8o

Noob
Some of the gaps between moves and swipe on block. Gap in frames inside ():

f412 (1) swipe - almost a true blockstring
f41 (12) swipe
f4 (2) swipe
34 (3) swipe
f21 (3) swipe
212 (9) swipe
21 (12) swipe
b1d4 (16) swipe
14 (5) swipe
12~swipe - no gap neither with swipe or pounce
1 (15) swipe
2 (11) swipe
3 (7) swipe
b3 (7) swipe
f3 (2) swipe
d3 (18) swipe
4 (5) swipe
d4 (18) swipe

For pounce, just add 1f to the gap

So 12~swipe is a true blockstring
f412, 34, f21, f3, f4, 14 and 4 with swipe are the strings that are only interrupted with armor.
I'm not sure what you did here, but f412, f4 and 4 into swipe are blockstrings, 12 swipe isn't a blockstring, and most of your other gap numbers are wrong. 34, f21, 212, 12, and f3 are uninterruptable without armor

Edit: I tested against normal slide, so those strings that I listed as only able to armored will be off
 

Circus

Part-Time Kano Hostage
because you could floating ball on reaction to jumps right after the force ball leaves your hands, reptile could literally spam slow force balls omfg.

He could even throw them safely at mid range if the opponent doesn't have forward advancing armor.

Seriously omg. THIS, not his deceptive mixups, is what will make him more viable.

It's a solid way to build meter too <3
I'm seriously now in love with my secondary more than my main. This is gold. Again, not broken, but hella amazing.
 
Last edited:

huh

Noob
I'm not sure what you did here, but f412, f4 and 4 into swipe are blockstrings, 12 swipe isn't a blockstring, and most of your other gap numbers are wrong. 34, f21, 212, 12, and f3 are uninterruptable without armor

Edit: I tested against normal slide, so those strings that I listed as only able to armored will be off

I used the in game framedata and applied the following formula:

startup+active+recovery+block advantage - cancel = cancel advantage on block
compared that to startup of swipe = 23

the formula is apparently correct, but obviously rely on the framedata being correct

Can someone double check? 12~swipe is indeed interruptable?
(I have a broken hand and cannot test it)

-------------------
Just to illustrate:

f412 frame data (that data refers to the last hit):

startup = 13
active = 3
recover = 31

total frames = 13+3+31 = 47

cancel = 19 = canceling the move happens on the 19th frame

So, when you cancel it, you have 47-19 = 28 frames to spare.
On block, you have -6 advantage

So, cancelling on block you have 28-6 = 22 frames to input the special

Since Swipe has 23 startup frames, you should have 1 frame of gap here.

So, can anyone check the math?
 
Last edited:

4x4lo8o

Noob
I used the in game framedata and applied the following formula:

startup+active+recovery+block advantage - cancel = cancel advantage on block
compared that to startup of swipe = 23

the formula is apparently correct, but obviously rely on the framedata being correct

Can someone double check? 12~swipe is indeed interruptable?
(I have a broken hand and cannot test it)
I'm in practice mode right now against Cassie. She tries to reversal flip kick between 12 and swipe but it gets stuffed. It looks like a 3 or 4 frame gap.(I know you want some else to try, but that's what I'm getting)

I don't quite understand all the frame voodoo NRS does, but I'm pretty sure your formula isn't right. Start up shouldn't matter and I'm not completely convinced that you're supposed to add block advantage, although people always say that. I think there might be another variable they dont list. In any case, it's probably not worth using the formulas in most cases just because you can't trust the NRS frame data. With how often start up and block frames are wrong I wouldn't count on recovery or cancel for much other than getting an idea about what to test
 
Reactions: huh

huh

Noob
I'm in practice mode right now against Cassie. She tries to reversal flip kick between 12 and swipe but it gets stuffed. It looks like a 3 or 4 frame gap.(I know you want some else to try, but that's what I'm getting)

I don't quite understand all the frame voodoo NRS does, but I'm pretty sure your formula isn't right. Start up shouldn't matter and I'm not completely convinced that you're supposed to add block advantage, although people always say that. I think there might be another variable they dont list. In any case, it's probably not worth using the formulas in most cases just because you can't trust the NRS frame data. With how often start up and block frames are wrong I wouldn't count on recovery or cancel for much other than getting an idea about what to test

The formula is from this guy's findings:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=428638611&insideModal=1

Talking to several people and doing some checks, it seemed correct. We even had a discussion here:
http://testyourmight.com/threads/how-to-read-understand-and-calculate-frame-data-in-mkx.49708/

Bur perhaps it is wrong indeed (in that case I have no idea how to calculate cancel advantage lol), or the formula is correct and the framedata is wrong, or both... anyway, thanks for testing it and pointing it out.

Could you test which strings are true blockstrings and which ones have gaps only interruptable with armor? I'll edit my op, since something is really off there.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
hmmm, perhaps something is off, Could you review the formula I used in the post above? If that's all wrong I'll have to edit the original post
MKX frame data is ridiculously wonky. You just have to hand test it all.
 
Reactions: huh

4x4lo8o

Noob
The formula is from this guy's findings:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=428638611&insideModal=1

Talking to several people and doing some checks, it seemed correct. We even had a discussion here:
http://testyourmight.com/threads/how-to-read-understand-and-calculate-frame-data-in-mkx.49708/

Bur perhaps it is wrong indeed (in that case I have no idea how to calculate cancel advantage lol), or the formula is correct and the framedata is wrong, or both... anyway, thanks for testing it and pointing it out.

Could you test which strings are true blockstrings and which ones have gaps only interruptable with armor? I'll edit my op, since something is really off there.

Oh that's interesting. That guys says the cancel number the game gives is the frame on which the move you cancel into starts coming out. In that case the calculation you're doing sort of makes sense. I always interpreted it as the opposite - the number of frames that got cancelled off of the recovery(I think this is traditionally what cancel refers to - cancelling recovery - but I guess I'm not sure). I always look for a high cancel number, but that means you want a low one. In either case I'd have to look at a bunch of frame data to prove or disprove.
Here's the swipe breakdown -
f4, f412, 4 - jail, reversals don't come out against a bot
34, f21,212, 12, 3, f3 - beat reversal flipkick, which should mean they can be backdashed/armored out of but beat all normals
f41, b1d4, 14, 1, 2, b3, d3, d4 - lose to both reversal flipkick and reversal spin, which means most characters can at least poke out
21~swipe loses to flipkick but beats spin. This probably isn't useful since 212~swipe beats flipkick.
The biggest take away from this is that you can block confirm f412 into swipe and it's safer, does more chip, and builds more meter. Doing it off the string with gaps is probably pretty safe, for now at least. Even when people learn the gaps you can probably turn it into a guessing game

I looked at the math you did and it looks right, so either the method you used or the frame data we're given is wrong. I tried using that method for some other strings I know that do(and don't) have holes in them and couldn't get consistent results nor could I really see any method or pattern that worked. So that method is useless for whatever reason. Personally I think there's just a lot of data we don't have. I can't think of any obvious examples in MKX but in previous NRS games moves would have different recovery on hit/block/whiff(that was how Ares guaranteed Godsmack resets on some characters worked, for example). This game looks like it has some sort of thing where sometimes things visually slow down slightly on block(I thinks that's why some of the option selects worked?) so who knows how that affects things. There's probably different cancel advantage on hit and on block and the cancel number it gives is something completely different and that combined with all the wrong frame data just makes everything impossible to calculate cleanly. As much as I wish you could nerd out and just do a bunch of math with the numbers they gave us you really just have to test everything. Luckily NRS gave us a pretty robust training mode to do that with
 
Reactions: huh

DOOMSDAY-15RUS-

i'LL DESTROY YOU ALL
F412 no gap, F41 safe, F412 safe, F412 claw safe it's very cool, but what about overhead
I can't understand why midrange overhead is -7 and can't use it in a block string, when close and far range are -64 wtf
 

Badfulgore

Beta Tester
Now in basilisk, when elevate enemy to air, this gain more high.
The Ex slide, is more complicate for explaine than the write here. Is posible make combos with more of 50 with all variations and this start.
add a d3 for me, is very easy to work tech Ex slide in wall.
Really, slide and ex slide, always could always be. But very strict sometimes.
Force balls, now work combo midscreen.
 

huh

Noob
Oh that's interesting. That guys says the cancel number the game gives is the frame on which the move you cancel into starts coming out. In that case the calculation you're doing sort of makes sense. I always interpreted it as the opposite - the number of frames that got cancelled off of the recovery(I think this is traditionally what cancel refers to - cancelling recovery - but I guess I'm not sure). I always look for a high cancel number, but that means you want a low one. In either case I'd have to look at a bunch of frame data to prove or disprove.

Here's the swipe breakdown -
f4, f412, 4 - jail, reversals don't come out against a bot
34, f21,212, 12, 3, f3 - beat reversal flipkick, which should mean they can be backdashed/armored out of but beat all normals
f41, b1d4, 14, 1, 2, b3, d3, d4 - lose to both reversal flipkick and reversal spin, which means most characters can at least poke out
21~swipe loses to flipkick but beats spin. This probably isn't useful since 212~swipe beats flipkick.
The biggest take away from this is that you can block confirm f412 into swipe and it's safer, does more chip, and builds more meter. Doing it off the string with gaps is probably pretty safe, for now at least. Even when people learn the gaps you can probably turn it into a guessing game

I looked at the math you did and it looks right, so either the method you used or the frame data we're given is wrong. I tried using that method for some other strings I know that do(and don't) have holes in them and couldn't get consistent results nor could I really see any method or pattern that worked. So that method is useless for whatever reason. Personally I think there's just a lot of data we don't have. I can't think of any obvious examples in MKX but in previous NRS games moves would have different recovery on hit/block/whiff(that was how Ares guaranteed Godsmack resets on some characters worked, for example). This game looks like it has some sort of thing where sometimes things visually slow down slightly on block(I thinks that's why some of the option selects worked?) so who knows how that affects things. There's probably different cancel advantage on hit and on block and the cancel number it gives is something completely different and that combined with all the wrong frame data just makes everything impossible to calculate cleanly. As much as I wish you could nerd out and just do a bunch of math with the numbers they gave us you really just have to test everything. Luckily NRS gave us a pretty robust training mode to do that with
Yeah man, that method made sense by the time we discussed it on the other topic. It appeared to be more consistent with what happened. I.e. cancel meaning the frame when the special start to come out, instead of recovery frames cancelled. But who knows now, I think you are right, there are some info we don't have, and the example you gave with the option selects is really an evidence of something missing framedata-wise. Regardless of the method, the formulas are not matching reality and in this case, NRS giving us in game framedata about cancel is useless since we cannot use it to calculate cancel advantage properly. I wish someone from NRS could at least explain what to use that cancel data for...


Thanks for pointing it out and testing it, I'll quote your findings in my op to correct the info I misgave. It's very good to have a forum where we can help each other and crosscheck info so we have reliable data here. I appreciate very much your help.
 

RapZiLLa54

Monster Island Tournaments
I currently am out of town so can't test things but I was curious to know what is the most he can get with two bars now midscreen.

For example how much does

F42 ex invis 34 ex invis f421 dash njp 21 f421 slide do?
There isn't enough cancel advantage to do 34 but
f41 ex invis- f41 ex invis- f412-NJP- f41- f412 slide does 43%