Regarding future tier list layouts

[WAR-BLAST]

Although it's too early to talk about specific matchups, how do you guys see character tier lists being organized in the future? Will the lists rank one character higher than another, based on the overall performance of said characters' 3 variations?

Or will tier placement be broken up by the variation itself? In other words, a specific character variation could be ranked higher than that of another characters', and vice versa on the list.

Or how do you see this working?

 

[Juggs]

Although it's too early to talk about specific matchups, how do you guys see character tier lists being organized in the future? Will the lists rank one character higher than another, based on the overall performance of said characters' 3 variations?

Or will tier placement be broken up by the variation itself? In other words, a specific character variation could be ranked higher than that of another characters', and vice versa on the list.

Or how do you see this working?

Like most tier lists, it should be based on match-ups. For instance, you do a characters MU numbers for all his/her match-ups. Then, you add the first number (ie. if it's 7-3, you add the 7) with all the other first numbers. So say there's only 3 characters in a game. And character X has a 7-3 against Y, a 6-4 against Z, and a 5-5 against X. Then X would have 18 points. And based on the number of points, that determines their spot on the tier list.

However, I don't know what will be done for variations. Probably, you will do the same but take the variation MU numbers into account also. It will just take a lot longer to get a somewhat accurate tier list. Which, imo, tier lists are never really accurate and are constantly changing.

 

[coolwhip]

Oh my god, TYM will be unbearable with all those tier lists.

 

[ChaosTheory]

Tier lists with this match-up-numbers form seem curious to me. Shouldn't "character A" either beat, lose to, or have no advantage over "character B" and so on? If the idea is that the two characters in a given match-up are theoretically being played flawlessly (or to highest reasonable standard), and without taking into account user error, etc.. Then wouldn't it make sense that the result from match 1 should be consistent through match 10?

Why would the better character lose three or four matches out of 10 if both characters are being played perfectly (relatively speaking)?

Seems to me like it would be much simpler to only go as far as indicating either "winning", "losing", or "even" when talking about a particular match-up. I've noticed these lists get quite unnecessarily messy with all of the individual numbers. Not to mention that two players could perceive a match-up exactly the same way... but one calls it 6-4 and the other calls it 7-3 for whatever reason.

If you want to create these charts as actual practical, useful guides... good luck doing it 30 characters and 90 variations and having it make sense.

 

[Barrogh]

It's going to be a mess.
I think we should treat every variation as a separate character. I don't see any reason to lump them together. This is a particular set of tools you choose before the match and then you play it out to the end. Whether there's a lot of similar tools and properties (like hitboxes, movement etc.) between two kits or not is another question.

 

[trufenix]

I would hope by now we've seen enough to confirm variations are characters (in matchup terms) and put this debate to rest. Maybe a couple of the characters will have tools across all variations that effectively determine matchups, but we have seen and heard enough I think to establish clearly that Displacer Raiden is not going to have the same match up numbers as Master of Storms Raiden.

72 characters people. That's over a thousand arguments just waiting to happen. Get hype.

 

[EMPEROR_OF_OUTWORLD]

LETS DO A NO TIER LIST CHALLENGE FOR MK10. ... TIER LIST SEEMS TO BRING THE DICK RIDERS OUT !!! .. JUST SAYING..


THE WARKAHN EMPEROR OF OUTWORLD HAS SPOKEN!!!

 

[james1926]

The only reasonable way is to consider each variation a seperate character.

 

[DreadKnight1]

I think they should be layed out as one of the following:

• show the best and worst possible outcomes for both characters. Eg displacer-grandmaster 7-3 and cyromancer-thunder god 6-4.
• The average mu that characters have for all variation possibilities(average of 9 mus)
• A mu chart for each variation showing how it does against all other variations so that every character has 3 mu charts(IMO the best way to do it)

The only valid way to make a tier list is based off mu numbers so after finalised mu charts are out you just rank up all the totals and list them in order

 

[PND OmegaK]

People asked the same for Injustice and stages, I think ultimately it will be the same because there'll be a favourable variation for each matchup anyway.

 

[cyke_out]

Just look to cvs2 tier lists for on how it was done. Either only one version of the character was listed with it's best groove or all character grooves were considered as a separate character.

 

[Akromaniac27]

Yeah its pretty clear each variation will have enough of a difference that is sways MU's.

I think there should be a main thread for each character, giving the general play of said character with all three variations' descriptions and pros and con's there, as well as listing(JUST names of characters with their variation) where each variation either makes or breaks. THEN have links on the bottom for the three SEPARATE variations and then continue from there

Example:

D'Vorrah:

Her play and all the jazz. Basically covering the tools that carry over all three variations

-Brood mother: description of its tools and whatnot. Then underneath a list of her winning, even, and losing MU's, but just a list. The list will be the character and their specific variation:

And repeat for the other two variations for her.

Then here you can link the three separate threads that go in depth for each variation

 

[Amplified$hotz]

The only reasonable way is to consider each variation a seperate character.

how would a tier list work? Displacer S+ tier but thunder god f tier?

 

[james1926]

how would a tier list work? Displacer S+ tier but thunder god f tier?

Exactly.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Exactly.

Not bad. It would just take years to do that. I guess whichever variation handles the most variations is top, but i feel like there could be a shorter, easier way to do it.

 

[trufenix]

Not bad. It would just take years to do that. I guess whichever variation handles the most variations is top, but i feel like there could be a shorter, easier way to do it.

Unless Paolo accomplishes a thing no one ever has before, the "useless" variations are going to shake out pretty quickly. There will always be counter pick considerations, but its only going to take a few months for people to latch on to a definitive variation for a character and that's the one people are going to talk about. A year down the line, no one is going to be concerned about Scorpion's Hellfire variation if it is only favorable against 5 variations, when Ninjitsu is favorable against 20 or 30. Well, nobody except a true specialist and lets face it, those people are all downplayers.

 

[WAR-BLAST]

Based on the video footage shown so far, are there any indications as to how NRS might be achieveing character balance across variations, in terms of play styles?

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

actually the tier list will have to be based off the variations for them to work right (like in alpha 3, they had like a V/B/A ryu and they ranked those all separately on the tier list) #YEEAAAPPP

 

[Ray'sGoodLiquor]

I'd like to see tier lists go away in general. I don't think they do very much to promote the longevity of a game. Weather we like it or not, a large number of people in the community are tier whores. Without a list, or the self applied pressure that that person needs to play a top 3 character to have fun, might influence a wider variety of characters being played at a viable level.

 

[Compbros]

I'd like to see tier lists go away in general. I don't think they do very much to promote the longevity of a game. Weather we like it or not, a large number of people in the community are tier whores. Without a list, or the self applied pressure that that person needs to play a top 3 character to have fun, might influence a wider variety of characters being played at a viable level.

People are able to gauge strong characters with/without a tier. Just watching tournaments and seeing high level play you can see who might be the better/best characters.

 

[Ray'sGoodLiquor]

People are able to gauge strong characters with/without a tier. Just watching tournaments and seeing high level play you can see who might be the better/best characters.

True, but do we have to make it a massive community highlight that requires collaboration from most, if not all of the high level players active in the community? It's doing the same thing to fighting games that public K/D stats did to FPS games.

 

[Compbros]

True, but do we have to make it a massive community highlight that requires collaboration from most, if not all of the high level players active in the community? It's doing the same thing to fighting games that public K/D stats did to FPS games.

Not at all, K/D ratios are to inflate ones ego for whatever reason, tier lists are to show which characters are the strongest/weakest/viable/etc and potentially open up discussions on the character(s). K/Ds are a hindrance in that people may keep playing like it's TDM on objective based modes just to get higher K/Ds, tier lists are only a hindrance for people that tire of tier lists.

 

[trufenix]

True, but do we have to make it a massive community highlight that requires collaboration from most, if not all of the high level players active in the community? It's doing the same thing to fighting games that public K/D stats did to FPS games.

You're not going to make a game with as many nuances as (any fighter) without analytically minded people try to break it down scientifically. And while the ultimate goal of a tier list is validation, its not at its core a bad thing. If the idea is competition, having a list of which characters are harder or easier to win with is of great use. It lets senior players know what they should be preparing for and new players know where a good starting point is.

 

[Barrogh]

I think they should be layed out as one of the following:

• show the best and worst possible outcomes for both characters. Eg displacer-grandmaster 7-3 and cyromancer-thunder god 6-4.
• The average mu that characters have for all variation possibilities(average of 9 mus)
• A mu chart for each variation showing how it does against all other variations so that every character has 3 mu charts(IMO the best way to do it)

The only valid way to make a tier list is based off mu numbers so after finalised mu charts are out you just rank up all the totals and list them in order

IMO that would only make sense if community will establish special rules concerning variations that will allow something players won't be allowed to do with regard to entirely different characters, and you are making a list that tries to account for that (one hell of a task though).
I don't see a reason to make such a decision so far though.

 

[TarkatanDentist]

Oh my god, TYM will be unbearable with all those tier lists.

You do realise that you have the choice of not reading them if you don't like them... :/

At any rate, in terms of tier lists, every variation should definitely be classed as its own character.

As for matchup threads, IMO each variation of a character should have its own MU thread, and then there's a fourth thread detailing which variation is best against which other variations.