General/Other Re designing sub zero

[Bidu]

Here are some of my thoughts, i redesigned my Sub some time ago, and it works well for me

#1) I Started to using B12, after JP, it increased my dmg, and i can always cancel to clone/follow up pressure
#2) After Air to Air i follow up with dash 21, freeze, (B1)2, slide
#3) I started to using JP,B121 after freeze, so i can continue pressure easily
#4) If i decide to use normal bnb not b121, i use JP,B12,Freeze,NJP,Dash1,B12,212,slide easy to do and 38%
#5) Use D4 in pressure, its fastest d4 in the game, and give many frame adv so 22/21 is almost guaranted on hit
#6) Changed my Corner combos for most damaging, example
212,freeze,11,222
212,freeze,1,224,slide
214,freeze,(B1)2,224,slide
224,freeze,(B1)2,214,slide
#7 Use 22 as antiair more effective, also vs crossups, now its really hard to jump/crossup me, 22 is great great AA
#8 Changed my pressure, i like to use 21/d4/21/21/22/d4 etc. after 21 we are on neutral, and d4 is 8frames, so its easy to continue pressure, also u can fool people and make 21,d4,21,d4,212, also i like to troll with 22, instead of 224 i like to do 22,22,224
#9 I try to increase my dmg to maximum, so i like to do on opponents stuff like, NJP,dash1,b12,212,slide, or after freeze in air when i dont have time to B12/or NJP, i like to do something like dash1,214,slide instead of 214,slide. I Find that sub dmg is low, so i have to increase dmg to maximum.
#10 Also after, 212,clone on block in corner, after ex slide i like to add 4, so 4,214,slide for more dmg, also at 212,clone, throw into clone glitch, im adding jp for 3% more dmg
#11 when im trying to do ex slide into clone, im placing my clone midair, it hits almost every time
#12 Usefull stuff in corner, vs opponents with punishable wakeups, after 214,clone i like to do NJP, then not to fallow up with ex icepuddle, but charge B+2, and cancel into block, 90% of players will wakeups mindlessly, so other free combo
#13 After B+2 on hit midscreen i do dash1,B12,212,slide for 37% dmg its easy to do after some practice

I think thats all

Thanks for the contribution. Even tho I already knew the majority of these tech, it took me a lot of time, patience and practice to learn these stuff. Many Sub-Zero players will be thanking you.

 

[OnizukaPM]

thx

[MENTION=229]Shoryuken[/MENTION] i know this stuff but its risky, but yes i use it some time to confuse opponent, after B12,slide, at another JP its easier to do B12,22/21 etc becouse they are excepting slide. I just want to know if im neutral after B12 on blokck =[

 

[loogie]

Here are some of my thoughts, i redesigned my Sub some time ago, and it works well for me

#1) I Started to using B12, after JP, it increased my dmg, and i can always cancel to clone/follow up pressure
#2) After Air to Air i follow up with dash 21, freeze, (B1)2, slide
#3) I started to using JP,B121 after freeze, so i can continue pressure easily
#4) If i decide to use normal bnb not b121, i use JP,B12,Freeze,NJP,Dash1,B12,212,slide easy to do and 38%
#5) Use D4 in pressure, its fastest d4 in the game, and give many frame adv so 22/21 is almost guaranted on hit
#6) Changed my Corner combos for most damaging, example
212,freeze,11,222
212,freeze,1,224,slide
214,freeze,(B1)2,224,slide
224,freeze,(B1)2,214,slide
#7 Use 22 as antiair more effective, also vs crossups, now its really hard to jump/crossup me, 22 is great great AA
#8 Changed my pressure, i like to use 21/d4/21/21/22/d4 etc. after 21 we are on neutral, and d4 is 8frames, so its easy to continue pressure, also u can fool people and make 21,d4,21,d4,212, also i like to troll with 22, instead of 224 i like to do 22,22,224
#9 I try to increase my dmg to maximum, so i like to do on opponents stuff like, NJP,dash1,b12,212,slide, or after freeze in air when i dont have time to B12/or NJP, i like to do something like dash1,214,slide instead of 214,slide. I Find that sub dmg is low, so i have to increase dmg to maximum.
#10 Also after, 212,clone on block in corner, after ex slide i like to add 4, so 4,214,slide for more dmg, also at 212,clone, throw into clone glitch, im adding jp for 3% more dmg
#11 when im trying to do ex slide into clone, im placing my clone midair, it hits almost every time
#12 Usefull stuff in corner, vs opponents with punishable wakeups, after 214,clone i like to do NJP, then not to fallow up with ex icepuddle, but charge B+2, and cancel into block, 90% of players will wakeups mindlessly, so other free combo
#13 After B+2 on hit midscreen i do dash1,B12,212,slide for 37% dmg its easy to do after some practice

I think thats all

Hey Onizuka,
It's been a while now since we played online ... I gotta say, out of ALL the Sub Zero i've seen (EU region) your's is second to none! very very thorough and methodical
thanks for posting the stuff...

I would like to discuss one 'tech' though ... since now Sub is vulnerable to losing the corner coz of wakeup, i've been getting good success in trapping them in the corner by mainly using b121 after a freeze, keeps them standing so no wakeup attack! then continue pressure 212 clone or any other variation ending with clone, and if they make a mistake ... well, its Sub in the corner so i'll let it rip!!

next time you're onliny, PM me for some casuals

 

[loogie]

thx

[MENTION=229]Shoryuken[/MENTION] i know this stuff but its risky, but yes i use it some time to confuse opponent, after B12,slide, at another JP its easier to do B12,22/21 etc becouse they are excepting slide. I just want to know if im neutral after B12 on blokck =[

IMO, you're not neutral after b12 ... reptile dash comes to mind (for punishers). i might be wrong, but i've been punished alot more from a b12 then on a blocked 22 or 21 which are completely safe. i would say 21 is his safest out of the 3.

 

[OnizukaPM]

Thx Loogie, we`ll play more for sure
B121 in corner is great after this u can easily do 212clone and continue pressure thats right

I have one more thing/tech dunno if it was mentioned but never saw this in any matchup/discussion, when u are in corner and u decide to do 214 after freeze u can add second freeze for more dmg and i think u`ll have enough time to set up clone and continue pressure, its better IMO than ending with slide for dmg, but anyway for me b121 is superior in corner. What u think guys about this?

Other thing, i think Tom used it once, but its worth to mention, after freeze u can do B+2 not fully charge, and dash into for 212 combo, its frametrap and people dont know about this

 

[EGP_Shoryuken]

thx

[MENTION=229]Shoryuken[/MENTION] i know this stuff but its risky, but yes i use it some time to confuse opponent, after B12,slide, at another JP its easier to do B12,22/21 etc becouse they are excepting slide. I just want to know if im neutral after B12 on blokck =[

I think your in neutral or have slight frame advantage. I'm not %100 sure cuz I have no way of testing frame data, but I know for sure your not minus on block.
Also, are you sure you are doing b1 then slide? I'm not saying to do b1,2 then slide, thats kinda obvious. Before the over head spike comes out, you supposed to slide since they are blocking high expecting the spike.

 

[EGP_Shoryuken]

IMO, you're not neutral after b12 ... reptile dash comes to mind (for punishers). i might be wrong, but i've been punished alot more from a b12 then on a blocked 22 or 21 which are completely safe. i would say 21 is his safest out of the 3.

22 IMO is his worst move unless your trying to aa. His best pressure strings are 2,1 b1,2 then 2,2. 22 I think has the longest recovery of the three.

 

[loogie]

22 IMO is his worst move unless your trying to aa. His best pressure strings are 2,1 b1,2 then 2,2. 22 I think has the longest recovery of the three.

the only disadvantage of the b12 would then be getting poked in midstring. also, if the opponent is not blocking and the 2 from b12 whiffs you would be open for punish (coming from a cross over jump or right outside of range of the 2) since Sub throws away the spike and there would be extra animation. i am still a little skeptical about using b12 outside of a freeze capture or a guaranteed jump in punch.

nice matches at the thunderdom by the way, i was just watching the match vs Krazyie.

 

[OnizukaPM]

i use 22 in corner and for AA

thx shoryuken i didnt figured it out lol

Anyway u can do 222 or 22slide as well

F+4 1+2 hits medium? So u can F+4 slide or F+4 OH

 

[salvificblood]

I find myself using more d4's and f4, ice blast now. D4 I always used before but I really abuse it now just because it seems to make sense to me in a game that's received a universal dash nerf. I still think 22 is a very good string but it's best to use it when you have some form of life lead and want to maintain a more defensive spacing. The truth is, you should really use both 22 (always hit confirm it into the usual combos or 4, clone), and 21 which has more options afterwards and is better for a more offensive playstyle. 22 is still the better option for the corner just because people try to get over you so often in this game. That's why I still use 22 a lot.

I am interested to see how Tom will go about changing his Sub-Zero, though.

 

[GGA soonk]

i use 22 in corner and for AA

thx shoryuken i didnt figured it out lol

Anyway u can do 222 or 22slide as well

F+4 1+2 hits medium? So u can F+4 slide or F+4 OH

I don't think the sword after F4 is overhead, just hits mid, and is pretty punishable.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

I don't think the sword after F4 is overhead, just hits mid, and is pretty punishable.

I'm pretty sure its punishable on block and hit. ON HIT ....

 

[GGA soonk]

I'm pretty sure its punishable on block and hit. ON HIT ....

On hit it creates space and flips/knocks down your opponent. I've never been punished on hit, but who knows, maybe it's possible. One of the better uses imo is whiffing F4 into the ice sword. Once you whiff F4, some players will try to advance to punish/pressure and the sword can catch them off guard. It's a gamble, but I like to throw it out there now and then.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

On hit it creates space and flips/knocks down your opponent. I've never been punished on hit, but who knows, maybe it's possible. One of the better uses imo is whiffing F4 into the ice sword. Once you whiff F4, some players will try to advance to punish/pressure and the sword can catch them off guard. It's a gamble, but I like to throw it out there now and then.

I swear I read where fast forward moving wake up attacks hit ... seems like a bad gamble. Again I could be wrong completely.

 

[Odoyle]

I've been doing a ton more follow up 212-freeze/clone depending if it's blocked or not after my D4's I just wanna thank you guys for the tech it's been a nice new tool in my arsenal. I used to use it more for defense but i didn't realize the good advantage it has on hit until I read it here.

 

[GGA soonk]

I swear I read where fast forward moving wake up attacks hit ... seems like a bad gamble. Again I could be wrong completely.

You could be right, who knows. It's not something you throw out all day, that's for sure.

 

[Ravox]

So, have anyone already re-designed your Sub-Zero's?

I have changed a lot the way I play.

 

[SilverKeyMan]

Maybe I'm a bit of a scrub, but I haven't changed much at all... still rushing with SZ and likely not using enough ice clones. Also never really got into the whole "reset" thing, so no changes there either.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Maybe I'm a bit of a scrub, but I haven't changed much at all... still rushing with SZ and likely not using enough ice clones. Also never really got into the whole "reset" thing, so no changes there either.

See... online hasn't changed. Where as... overall... offline has. I've changed based on not wanting to deal with kitana, and how freakin annoying Kung Lao really can be in the right hands. You have to play each matchup in a different way now. It is just how things have changed.

 

[Wildabeast]

See... online hasn't changed. Where as... overall... offline has. I've changed based on not wanting to deal with kitana, and how freakin annoying Kung Lao really can be in the right hands. You have to play each matchup in a different way now. It is just how things have changed.

Pretty much, most of the people ive seen online are still using day one strategies. It's rare I run into someone that knows you can block after B121.

 

[Nick T.]

You've always had to play Sub matches differently, because he's just a different "type" of character. I've always played him semi slow and changed pace based on certain matchups. Before evo, my problem was I didn't have an insane amount of matchup experience, but I def knew how to use Sub. The difference now is that people stopped mashing on 22 and realized that all his attacks are good and have different uses. But, I already knew there were other things he could do. Can't rush in all day guys.

 

[Enenra]

In honor of the top 5 project, here is what would make Sub Zero top 5 or very close, however, don't put words in my mouth saying I'm requesting a buff and Sub Zeros just cry. I will freak out.

Three things:
1. Slide should slide under duck-able projectiles, you know, like a SLIDE.
2. Ice ball needs to not get stuffed so easily, ie less startup.
3. Remove damage scaling on freeze. It's stupid anyways, if anything when I freeze you you'll be MORE brittle nd MORE prone to attacks.

My two cents. I don't believe Sub Zero is as everyone says, and I'm re-picking him up so I can level up and get known.

 

[Dark_Rob]

Removing scaling on ice blast would be enough for Sub I think. The scaling doesn't even make sense. I mean JIP,2,1,4,xray is the same damage as JIP,2,2,ice blast,JIP,2,1,4,xray. It makes no sense.

The slide thing was already tested out and deemed to good. But fuck it, lots of characters have stuff that is to good. Give it to him. Lol

 

[GGA soonk]

I always figured if clone/ice blast did some sort of damage(including chip on ice blast) it would help negate the damage scaling and not make armoring through sz's clones/ice blast free for the opponent.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Removing scaling on ice blast would be enough for Sub I think. The scaling doesn't even make sense. I mean JIP,2,1,4,xray is the same damage as JIP,2,2,ice blast,JIP,2,1,4,xray. It makes no sense.

The slide thing was already tested out and deemed to good. But fuck it, lots of characters have stuff that is to good. Give it to him. Lol

I still want to know who deemed sliding under duck able projectiles was too good. I can think of only one matchup that would be greatly effected.