Discussion in 'Raiden' started by Konqrr, Aug 7, 2011.
superman that hoe
Who's worse for Raiden, Cyber Sub or Sonya? Aren't those like his only two bad match-ups. What bout Kabal and Cage?
7-3 vs Jax
This matchup has to be at least 6-4, if not 5-5, simply because Jax is just too good of a character with normals that are too much faster than Raidens.
6-4 vs Sektor
This is definitely 4-6 in Sektor's favor. His 6 frame n1 makes Raiden's teleport nearly useless, and without that Raiden's pretty much the worst character in the game.
6-4 vs Sonya Blade
IMO this is also a bad matchup for Raiden. I'd say 4-6. Her dive kick has great auto correct that can fu combo punich Raiden's teleport.
personally i found that cage and sonya didnt feel that bad(despite them both having auto correct nonsense, though i think sonyas projectile recovery makes it risky to tele, however u can block the dive kick sometimes if u tele, also its hard too really damage cage if hes played correctly), cyber sub was weird but u can superman him a lot and zone him out
i found that kabal, kenshi, reptile, kung lao, sektor and kano were my toughest matchups because they nullify his space control and make him change is game... some of those are 5 5's probably but kabal and kung lao feel really limited, sonya can be bad but i find myself punishing the shit out of her.... it really depends on how good raiden actually is, i think his offense is too limited and that he actually has quite a few iffy matchups... though he clearly changes the opponents game.... i think that its a common misconception that he blows up pokes with his teleport
Kabal and Sonya certainly seem to be the toughest. You made a good point with Cage. I think Raiden goes even with Lao tbh. Raiden's defensive and escaping tools can limit Lao's mobility to an extent. Reptile is an asshole but still 5-5. Sektor 5-5 for sure. I think Raiden beats Kenshi. Kano is a 5-5 because of auto correct bullshit/knives or up ball reverse inputs.
Yeah Raiden's offense is limited but he may have some of the best defensive tools in the game. Teleport really is a game changer imo. He may not necessarily blow up all pokes with it but it is possible. The worst thing is your opponent has to block your offense. I'm starting to agree with Altaire that Cyber Sub is a 5-5 match-up.
I mean for people to really understand Raiden they have to watch Glue's video. Only then will they understand what he can and cannot do. He thinks Raiden is one of the best...I tend to agree.
glue claims that raiden is the king of neutral however he doesnt blow up pokes in fact his teleport has a duration of 29 frames and most d1's and d3's have a duration of around 25 and 21 frames, making you close to neutral because of turnaround so u arent yielding any punishes, making the risk reward on teleport bad (but making ex teleport a game changer if they attempt to punish). Also raiden doesnt yield much advantage off his d1 or d3 and his fastest follow up is 12 frames... that means ur best option in most situation is backdash and whiff punish which is predictable....
glue's video doesnt prove anything to me and to be honest what can raiden to against kenshi to amount any offense? walk me through the matchup and tell me what he can do against kenshi to win... are you really gonna play superman vs shoulder the whole time and hope to win? i need to run that matchup some more
my argument is that while raiden may feel even in all of these matchups because his ability to reverse pressure and limit the opponents options but what can he actually do to take control of the game himself. Hypothetitically we have a godlike player playing reptile who knows the raiden matchup extremely well, what can raiden do besides teleport and bait elbow dashes for a punish, or ex teleport.... spamming lightning will only get you so far because reptile can easily blow you up if you throw more than one projectile in a row....
ive yet to see a raiden prove to me he is top tier yet... if his whole game is bait and punish, what happens if the opponent doesnt take the bait.... a teleport doesnt always yield good damage even if its a good read, however it can be full punished everytime if the opponent makes a good.... sorry if im ramblling but maybe if raiden does make te better reads he will win always. maybe every match raiden has is a complete war of attrition with grabs, and it stays even until one person makes a mistake, but i think anytime raiden has to make a comeback the opponent has to make the mistake..en tele is great for blowing up punishes but man you really have to outread your opponent with him... im still undecided on the char, but other chars seem to have more conventional and tangible ways of winning for me....
most of what you said is very true dude. raiden doesn't have the easy way out like other top characters. he doesn't have an abusable safe tool like Sonya, Kabal or Kenshi do. if you win with him you have outplayed your opponent no doubt. the point is that because people fear Raiden's teleport (or at least respect it), it gives Raiden free offense. at jump-in range, an opponent is thinking shall i make the first move? what if i do something, whiff and get punished? raiden says ok fuck you stay hesitant i'll get a free jump in or a B312 or whatever. try get a grab in there and voila you have a life lead. raiden can run away with it. thats how you play. countering opponents, using the teleport wisely and capitalising on grab mix-ups. the only time you should pressure with raiden is in the corner.
anyways the only real problem he has is the lack of a comeback factor. while he can run away with a lead, he can also struggle to chase opponents down. but his teleport will always be in the back of the opponents mind, and that means advantage raiden from the beginning.
you make very good points dude and i understand that you as a raiden player have to work harder than a lot of others to win but it's do-able.
Against Sonya, if you uppercut or f24 her while she is blocking (distance doesn't matter) you can push just out of her d4 range. The only way she can hit you is if you're not blocking and the knee of Raiden's leg that is sticking out closest to her moves closer when he leans in during his idle stance. If you block, Raiden doesn't sway so he can't be hit by d4. Use f24 or uppercut because they are both 0 on block and work at any range (touching included). Other strings with knock back do work (22f1, 1212, and 4) but the ranges can be a little iffy and may not knock her back far enough.
ive been working on my poke game and i think raiden has some new value if i poke better and really play perfect defense when i actually get touched, problem is my raiden is rusty
Raiden doesn't blow up pokes? Since when? I always blow up pokes in any 0 or -1 situation by back dashing into b312. Sometimes even after a teleport. It blows up any d1 or d3 unless it's kitana's d1 or smokes d3. It catches his d3 sometimes, but it's just in consistent.
Fast forward to 35 seconds. I probably do it more than once.
yeah ive also realized something really good about raiden. i think hes s tier
Care to elaborate?
if u counter-poke d3s with teleport, or d1s with a small delay, and ur opponent decides to do a string, you will reversal them for a full combo, so that literally makes his defense insane, in matchups like cage with auto-correct after d3 just block the d3 and tele instead of teleing during the d3. u can also counter-poke d1s on hit with tele, obviously u want to not do it everytime but literally he nullifies pokes, anytime they do a string u can counter-tele, just dont teleport during a poke, counter-poke wiht tele
Yeah it's pretty good. That's one of the things that makes Raiden hard to deal with because he's unlike any other character. You can even teleport out if they hit you with a downpoke. It's awesome lol. BUT if they know you're going to do this... they can blow it up. Like I said, you usually don't have to think about this with any character so it does blow a lot of people up. They can downpoke and just wait a split second if they know you're going to teleport, but obviously if they immediately go into their blocked string after the down poke then once you teleport they are whiffing in the opposite direction.
Dizzy has done this to me before. He would down poke me then slightly delay a f32, I teleported, and since he delayed his f32, it came out as a b3 once I got on the otherside and he full combo punished me. You just have to be smart and think quickly to blow shit like that up.
I dont agree with him owning Nightworlf like that, the only threat to nightwolf is raidens superman but even that is severly punishable if blocked with Nightwolfs 1 juggle combo, lightning can be reflected, and cna shoulder charge his teleport within frame range....
Raiden can duck any shoulder and get 35% damage for free. Even ex-shoulder. But then again, that works for most characters. What's nightwolf's best mixup vs raiden... shoulder or lightning? Duck shoulder or jump his lightning and it's big damage either way. Raiden's armor leads to 30% damage over nightwolf's armored choke move which is crappy damage.
Not to mention that 6-4 only means slight advantage. Nightwolf isn't getting OWNED by raiden. It simply means raiden has better tools to win in the match. Nightwolf definitely has a good shot at winning.
But what if Raiden superman's? Nightwolf can easily axe into a 38%, or even punich raidens teleport with f3,1, into an axe swing? Your definitely right I'm just wondering if he can out damage nightwolf
NW outdamages Raiden, but it's not a total blowout. And who says Raiden has to superman?
Raiden has better footsies as well. He doesn't always have to teleport.
Would you say his footsies is better than nightwolfs? and assuming he doesnt superman or teleport, Nightwolf can ex-lightning into a full combo,,,
Yes, they are better for sure. Raiden outranges him by a lot, and lightning can be reacted to.
Recently I had a opportunity to pick up Raiden. I am trying to play offensive fighting style, as it fits me best. And here comes a question MU specific related.
I Am dealing with heavy Cyrax pressure that I dont know yet how to deal with. I try to use his 6f d1 and d3. But I was wondering if teleport would be possible to escape between strings (21 and 121) I've tried to, but I failed.
Thanks in advance !
Chaosphere did an excellent job compiling some data that should help you out.
Teleport has a 1 frame execution, so anywhere there's a gap it should be possible to teleport out
ex lightning on raiden? lol good luck with that one.ive played nw for nearly a year and have finally realized ex lightning isnt worth the risk most of the time.the raiden match needs to be played just like nw has to fight everyone else-stand there and block and pray for a mistake,the only thing nw has going for him is his damage output.
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