Eddy Wang
Skarlet scientist
I though we could help NRS out improving MK10 by helping pointing out what worked with MK9 and point out a very few things that went un-noticed in MK9 that probably would make a huge diference if it was allowed for us to another patch, you might have or not notice a few of these stuffs, so feel comfy enough to read about and the causes of it.
Assuming MK10 will be built on the same formula as MK9 did, i've pointed out some things that in general didn't work out well, but still i think it can be improved on this very same area, i might as well have miss something.
Have a good read, this is just a bit long
:: Jump punch is at least -5 on whiff before the opponent blocks ::
Though some ppl considered this a bug, this ended up being one of the most good things jump happy players had to hold it, there was characters in MK9 who could punish this small gap depending on how fast they could cover an area.
:: Impossible to start a combo from a JiP if any character jump backwards and connects ::
In MK9 if a character jumps backwards and connects a punch, it can't be linked into a combo, i'm not sure if this was intentional to discourage backward jumping strategies.
::Some universal pokes had different frame advantages on hit or block ::
Scorpion is probably the character who suffered more from this, D3 -7 on hit, D4 0 frames on hit, if this was intentional to not combo, we had chars with faster moves like KL spin, who is impossible to link from pokes.
Other characters with wheird frame data on poke are.
Sub-zero - 8f startup +8 on hit (standing)
Kitana - D1 is -15 on block (maybe that was intentional due the range)
Kabal - D1 is 7f start up
Kung Lao & Ermac - D3 is 9f startup
Rain - D3 is 13f startup
Liu Kang - D3 10f startup.
Cyrax - D4 is +16 on hit (HOLY SHIT BATMAN)
I definitely agree with smarrgasm who said:
Every D1 should be 6 frames start up, -13 on block, +2 on Hit standing, +1 on hit crouching
Every D3 should be 7 frames startuo, -7 on block, +3 on hit standing, +10 on hit crouching
Every D4 should be 12 frames startup, 0 frames on block, +11 on hit standing, +4 on hit crouching.
:: 9 frame strings/Normals startups that were 0 frames on block ::
In my opinion the reason why Cage and Cyrax strings are a real pain with cage being the worst, i think no move that is 9 or 6 frames startup should be 0 frames on block, the most common normal in MK9 is at least 10 frames and the average is 12 frames startup, to have 9 or below then this character should have a speciality, fighting with character who faster strings have 12f startups against cage or cyrax is a real pain.
Kabal for example, he has a 9 frame F4, his fastest punisher, also F4 was -11 on block (should have been -13 at least), so you don't see Kabals spaming F4 unless they want to punish something.
Kung Lao has a 7f high (standing 2), his fastest punisher, but standing 2 is about -2 on block and hits high, so it can be ducked to avoid KL spaming the 2,1 string all day.
:: All the way in Jump Kick, and is safe on whiff ::
Jump kicks are the ultimate aproach in this game, in UMK3 the jump kick had an recovery animation, this means if someone performs his kick too soon, at some point the character will pull out his legs for landing, this forced players to telegraph early jump kicks with carefuly timming, because if it whiffs it was punishable.
I still do not understand why MK9 has a UMK3 Genesis Jump Kick style, where the character holds his jump kick from his early frames and go all the way in and out until he lands with the kick in somebody's face or in the ground after whiff and remain safe.
:: Neutral Jump Kick ::
Besides being Ermac specific? what is that move for?
:: Frame Hierarchy ::
In MK9 we had, single frames, active frames, Armored frames, and invincibility frames.
Single frames affected normals, Active frames on special moves, some moves used to have armored frames and invincibility frames used to the ultimate ones. If we make a comparision of who beats who we would have a graphic like this:
Invincibility Frames > X-Rays > Armor > Active frames > Single frames
Johnny Cage ex Nut punch was probably the best ex move in the game, because it would beat out ANYTHING, projectiles, armored moves, even X-Rays, i think, each character could have 1 ex invicibility frame move, and 1 armored move, this would definitely be interesting.
:: Ghost Hitboxes ::
What i don't fully understand is the Ghost Hitboxes, when Cyrax teleport he leaves a invincibility Ghost Hitbox that causes characters like Kabal to get hit by it pretty bad, the ghost hitbox is so great that could also avoid X-Rays.
Every character who use wakeup attacks, also leaves a ghost hitbox, where the attacker hits in thin air, and cancel his normal into a special without the first hit necessarely connects with the opponent because the ghost invincibility hitbox starts before its animation, was this intentional? i'm not sure. In personal opinion this is one of the areas where NRS needs to review carefully the Oki game can define a good half of the meta game.
:: Input Recognition Delay Glitch::
The release check ended up being a huge problem in the game where instant air moves where discovered, characters that required precise timming in execution couldn't do a 90% sucessfull execution rate with their instant air moves, because when you input, up, or down, the game takes a while to recognize and execute such inputs.
As result we ended up having a consistence problem, performing instant teleport with Scorpion to fake out a tele on the 1st frame, performing Skarlet "ia"Daggers and any other move with the same level of dificulty held some characters true potential back.
I've tested this with a D-Pad and with a Stick, i only came to notice when i used my Hori Stick, i noticed imediatly that i had to hold up for the character to jump instead of simply jump it, now to perform this, i have to see the character moving from the ground and fairly quick input the move to be performed on the earliest frames, as result it doesn't become accurate.
Definitely something to look out for in MK10, this should be one of the 1st things to go.
What can be improved on MK10 engine?
In MK10...
::Jump punches and Jump kicks::
I like a lot that Jump Punches are at least -5 if it whiffs, i would this mechanic to stay that way in MK10, but this same principle should be added to Jump kicks as well, it would make the game less jumpy happy, because if whiffs it can be punishable.
:: Recovering Animation from Jump kicks and punches ::
If it used too early, the move shouldn't carry over until catches someone crouching, please give us this back, it was huge in UMK3 from arcades, and helped to AA a lot.
:: Neutral jump kick animation switched to the traidional and combo-able NJK ::
Yes, the current one on MK9 is probably the less used move, besides scaling damage there isin't exactly a real use for that kick unless you're ermac, or scorpion.
:: Overpowered Armor moves, shouldn't have more invincibility startup frames on wakeup ::
They're already waking up with armor, invencibility + armor makes the moves broken.
:: No more shaking stage or distracting cenários ::
:: No more very small stages or very long stages ::
:: we don't want push block in MK10 ::
The game uses blockstrings to build meter, that is why most of the combos ended up with anti-wakeups resets into blockstring, is the ultimate feeling in the world.
:: resets that force ppl to fall standing should return::
:: no more unblockable reset::
50-50 resets are okay as long as one of the options to go for needs to be punishable.
:: Risk, Reward strings/specials ::
This means the return of strings or specials that are punishable or interruptible on a bad call, but very rewarding if connects.
:: Ex Specials should probably have unique abilities, trait-like injustice ::
:: Run Button, we don't needz stance switch::
: No more slowest characters in the game who can't compete ::
We don't want them to be the next stryker or baraka
:: 1 more selectable X-ray in character select ::
:: Noob Saibot's Portal Glitch to be his ex portal ::
Just watch Check's lord of Shadows
:: No more movie like soundtrack, we miss Dan, Rich and Vince trio from MK 3D ::
These guys did what even a movie band couldn't do, please for us go back to that amazing style.
:: BRUTALITY::
HP, BL, HK, HK, BL, HP, LP, LK, LK, BL, LP
Music to my hears, and to my brains, brutalities used to bring me close to Forden, brutalities had tempo, rythm, and feeling, screw what other says, brutalities were awesome, and are a good execution exercise, performing a brutality without using uncessary buttons is awesome.
::MK4, MKDA, and Deception Costumes ::
:: PS Vita Costumes ::
:: Robot Smoke, Delete Cyber Sub-Zero ::
:: Kia, Jataaka, Sareena for MK10 ::
::: 1 armor move at least for 1 character besides his x-ray :::
So M2dave can bitch about smoke having armor.
Assuming MK10 will be built on the same formula as MK9 did, i've pointed out some things that in general didn't work out well, but still i think it can be improved on this very same area, i might as well have miss something.
Have a good read, this is just a bit long
*MK9 notice and Un-noticed stuff*
:: Jump punch is at least -5 on whiff before the opponent blocks ::
Though some ppl considered this a bug, this ended up being one of the most good things jump happy players had to hold it, there was characters in MK9 who could punish this small gap depending on how fast they could cover an area.
:: Impossible to start a combo from a JiP if any character jump backwards and connects ::
In MK9 if a character jumps backwards and connects a punch, it can't be linked into a combo, i'm not sure if this was intentional to discourage backward jumping strategies.
::Some universal pokes had different frame advantages on hit or block ::
Scorpion is probably the character who suffered more from this, D3 -7 on hit, D4 0 frames on hit, if this was intentional to not combo, we had chars with faster moves like KL spin, who is impossible to link from pokes.
Other characters with wheird frame data on poke are.
Sub-zero - 8f startup +8 on hit (standing)
Kitana - D1 is -15 on block (maybe that was intentional due the range)
Kabal - D1 is 7f start up
Kung Lao & Ermac - D3 is 9f startup
Rain - D3 is 13f startup
Liu Kang - D3 10f startup.
Cyrax - D4 is +16 on hit (HOLY SHIT BATMAN)
I definitely agree with smarrgasm who said:
Every D1 should be 6 frames start up, -13 on block, +2 on Hit standing, +1 on hit crouching
Every D3 should be 7 frames startuo, -7 on block, +3 on hit standing, +10 on hit crouching
Every D4 should be 12 frames startup, 0 frames on block, +11 on hit standing, +4 on hit crouching.
:: 9 frame strings/Normals startups that were 0 frames on block ::
In my opinion the reason why Cage and Cyrax strings are a real pain with cage being the worst, i think no move that is 9 or 6 frames startup should be 0 frames on block, the most common normal in MK9 is at least 10 frames and the average is 12 frames startup, to have 9 or below then this character should have a speciality, fighting with character who faster strings have 12f startups against cage or cyrax is a real pain.
Kabal for example, he has a 9 frame F4, his fastest punisher, also F4 was -11 on block (should have been -13 at least), so you don't see Kabals spaming F4 unless they want to punish something.
Kung Lao has a 7f high (standing 2), his fastest punisher, but standing 2 is about -2 on block and hits high, so it can be ducked to avoid KL spaming the 2,1 string all day.
:: All the way in Jump Kick, and is safe on whiff ::
Jump kicks are the ultimate aproach in this game, in UMK3 the jump kick had an recovery animation, this means if someone performs his kick too soon, at some point the character will pull out his legs for landing, this forced players to telegraph early jump kicks with carefuly timming, because if it whiffs it was punishable.
I still do not understand why MK9 has a UMK3 Genesis Jump Kick style, where the character holds his jump kick from his early frames and go all the way in and out until he lands with the kick in somebody's face or in the ground after whiff and remain safe.
:: Neutral Jump Kick ::
Besides being Ermac specific? what is that move for?
:: Frame Hierarchy ::
In MK9 we had, single frames, active frames, Armored frames, and invincibility frames.
Single frames affected normals, Active frames on special moves, some moves used to have armored frames and invincibility frames used to the ultimate ones. If we make a comparision of who beats who we would have a graphic like this:
Invincibility Frames > X-Rays > Armor > Active frames > Single frames
Johnny Cage ex Nut punch was probably the best ex move in the game, because it would beat out ANYTHING, projectiles, armored moves, even X-Rays, i think, each character could have 1 ex invicibility frame move, and 1 armored move, this would definitely be interesting.
:: Ghost Hitboxes ::
What i don't fully understand is the Ghost Hitboxes, when Cyrax teleport he leaves a invincibility Ghost Hitbox that causes characters like Kabal to get hit by it pretty bad, the ghost hitbox is so great that could also avoid X-Rays.
Every character who use wakeup attacks, also leaves a ghost hitbox, where the attacker hits in thin air, and cancel his normal into a special without the first hit necessarely connects with the opponent because the ghost invincibility hitbox starts before its animation, was this intentional? i'm not sure. In personal opinion this is one of the areas where NRS needs to review carefully the Oki game can define a good half of the meta game.
:: Input Recognition Delay Glitch::
The release check ended up being a huge problem in the game where instant air moves where discovered, characters that required precise timming in execution couldn't do a 90% sucessfull execution rate with their instant air moves, because when you input, up, or down, the game takes a while to recognize and execute such inputs.
As result we ended up having a consistence problem, performing instant teleport with Scorpion to fake out a tele on the 1st frame, performing Skarlet "ia"Daggers and any other move with the same level of dificulty held some characters true potential back.
I've tested this with a D-Pad and with a Stick, i only came to notice when i used my Hori Stick, i noticed imediatly that i had to hold up for the character to jump instead of simply jump it, now to perform this, i have to see the character moving from the ground and fairly quick input the move to be performed on the earliest frames, as result it doesn't become accurate.
Definitely something to look out for in MK10, this should be one of the 1st things to go.
What can be improved on MK10 engine?
In MK10...
::Jump punches and Jump kicks::
I like a lot that Jump Punches are at least -5 if it whiffs, i would this mechanic to stay that way in MK10, but this same principle should be added to Jump kicks as well, it would make the game less jumpy happy, because if whiffs it can be punishable.
:: Recovering Animation from Jump kicks and punches ::
If it used too early, the move shouldn't carry over until catches someone crouching, please give us this back, it was huge in UMK3 from arcades, and helped to AA a lot.
:: Neutral jump kick animation switched to the traidional and combo-able NJK ::
Yes, the current one on MK9 is probably the less used move, besides scaling damage there isin't exactly a real use for that kick unless you're ermac, or scorpion.
:: Overpowered Armor moves, shouldn't have more invincibility startup frames on wakeup ::
They're already waking up with armor, invencibility + armor makes the moves broken.
:: No more shaking stage or distracting cenários ::
:: No more very small stages or very long stages ::
:: we don't want push block in MK10 ::
The game uses blockstrings to build meter, that is why most of the combos ended up with anti-wakeups resets into blockstring, is the ultimate feeling in the world.
:: resets that force ppl to fall standing should return::
:: no more unblockable reset::
50-50 resets are okay as long as one of the options to go for needs to be punishable.
:: Risk, Reward strings/specials ::
This means the return of strings or specials that are punishable or interruptible on a bad call, but very rewarding if connects.
:: Ex Specials should probably have unique abilities, trait-like injustice ::
:: Run Button, we don't needz stance switch::
: No more slowest characters in the game who can't compete ::
We don't want them to be the next stryker or baraka
:: 1 more selectable X-ray in character select ::
:: Noob Saibot's Portal Glitch to be his ex portal ::
Just watch Check's lord of Shadows
:: No more movie like soundtrack, we miss Dan, Rich and Vince trio from MK 3D ::
These guys did what even a movie band couldn't do, please for us go back to that amazing style.
:: BRUTALITY::
HP, BL, HK, HK, BL, HP, LP, LK, LK, BL, LP
Music to my hears, and to my brains, brutalities used to bring me close to Forden, brutalities had tempo, rythm, and feeling, screw what other says, brutalities were awesome, and are a good execution exercise, performing a brutality without using uncessary buttons is awesome.
::MK4, MKDA, and Deception Costumes ::
:: PS Vita Costumes ::
:: Robot Smoke, Delete Cyber Sub-Zero ::
:: Kia, Jataaka, Sareena for MK10 ::
::: 1 armor move at least for 1 character besides his x-ray :::
So M2dave can bitch about smoke having armor.
Last edited:
I've wanted brutalities in the game since before MK9 came out lol
