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Discussion in 'Kitana' started by Konqrr, Aug 7, 2011.
Correct. Be thankful if you just get uppercutted!
Question, should the Reptile matchup be 3-7? Or at least 4.5-6.5. I feel like 4-6 is too generous. Maybe hold off until the dash is patched?
Spaeking of which will elbow dash now be punishable by f2, 1 with 6 more frames of recovery?
It's going to -20 right? So theoretically yes (f2 is 18 frames), but the problem I have always had with elbow dash is that it's so hard to react to without an animation like a blocked Kabal dash. I mean, I can hardly throw out a d1 in time right now before he starts attacking again.
Its actually -21 when patched (presently -15) however I was wondering about block stun. Neutral 2 is 11 frames and punishes the dash as is, but that leaves 4 frames while this new one would leave 3 for f2. I would imagine it does tho.
I see what you mean about the blocked animation for Rep's lizdash, I mean it looks like a cancelled lizdash, almost as if it didnt run into a block. However Kabal's blocked animation I think is a great signal for punish reaction.
I'm just going to list out my personal opinions on matchups that differ from the original post now that I've gained some more experience. Of course, this could change greatly after the patch.
7-3 vs CSZ
5-5 vs Ermac
6-4 vs Jax
4.5-5.5 vs Kano
4-6 vs Kenshi
4.5-5.5 vs Liu Kang
4-6 vs Mileena
3.5-6.5 vs Reptile
5-5 vs Scorpion
5-5 vs Sektor
4-6 vs Skarlet*
5-5 vs Smoke**
5.5-4.5 vs Stryker
6-4 vs Sub Zero
*Based on what we can expect from the patch, I think this will change to 5-5 or maybe a slight advantage for Kit
**I'm a bit unsure about this, because I really think Smoke should at least have a slight advantage. There's obviously the factor of shake, but Smoke really isn't bad up close. I wouldn't say it's a full 4-6 in Smoke's favor, and possibly not even a 4.5-5.5, but Smoke definitely does limit Kitana's options.
I'm back to saying Kitana vs. Scorpion is in her favor. I was just biased when I thought otherwise, blinded because Slips was temporarily blowing me up. The problem was me not Kit. Why do you think it's even?
Mileena's matchups are not nearly this bad and Kitana still gonna be way better than her after the patch. You're severly downplaying Kitana's strengths.
Admittedly Mileena has Telekick and can Roll projectiles, but Kitana has faster normals, better pressure, better better projectiles (that are safe on block), much better damage, much better chip damage and much, much better wakeup options.
I just don't see any advantage on him. The only possibility being that Kitana's punishes yield higher damage than most other chars when his 50/50's are guarded. Scorpion can do well up close, even with pokes, and tp fans on reaction.
I was thinking of making the Mileena matchup 4.5-5.5, but I still think Mileena has the advantage there. I used to think it was like Kitana's worst matchup until I played some good Mileenas and learned it better, but she still has a tactical advantage. d4 competes with d1 (and has better range), instant air projectile wars makes it alot harder for kitana to try to get in than mileena, and kitana's air game (jump in's or air fans) is easily nullified by teleport kick. Again, I'm saying this is only my opinion in the current version of the game and the patch could change things greatly, I just wanted to give my thoughts.
As for that last statement, I disagree a little bit. I'm with DrDogg in that I think people are severely overstating Kitana's strengths.
He does fine up close. Problem is he has trouble getting in. She owns him at d+1 and f+2,1 range.
I have to agree here, and depending where you are on the screen iAF baits out teleports as I find i'm down ready to block and punish when it comes. Slight advantage Kitana IMO
If anything, I would have it 5.5-4.5 Kitana. I still don't see enough to justify a 6-4.
I think Kitana - Jax will remain 7-3 in her favour. Nothing new in the patch has really changed the matchup, it's still almost impossible to even approach her.
Reptile will probably get even worse for her though.
EDIT: on second thought, Jax's quicker projectile recovery might help quite a bit in the kitana matchup.
Kitana vs Noob is now even due to overhead tackle. The problem is that her normals are so damn slow that all she can punish a tackle with is d1 but if he gets in with a string she is forced to guess the low/overhead shadow. It seemed a lot harder when I played last night than it did before but perhaps I'm just not used to the overhead.
The Kung Lao matchup probably goes 6.5-3.5 or better for us now lol
Konqrr, I agree with you on the Noob matchup. I was having a very difficult time last night against him. It's alot harder to touch him now.
I've found just zoning Jax works well for me, fan fan fan runaway when he gets close. If he gets in though, game over for me. Is this basically how you play him? Does the patch change anything if it is?
Why? Haven't played it yet but I assumed it'd be a wash or slightly worse.
She didn't have a problem punishing spin already and the changes to overhead/low hat don't help us as much as other characters. f+2 is now only punishable with d+1 instead of full combo, punishing low hat with 2,1 is a just frame punish, and 2,4,1+2 is safe. Low hat being neutral on hit is good but I'd rather have the old punishments.
The Low Hat nerf hurts him greatly in the Kitana matchup now. She can :en iAF to full combo on reaction from just inside 3/4 screen and even get a jk~af combo now where she couldn't even think about punishing him before.
I'll have a lot more data after tonight, but I am positive it's worse for him now due to the low hat nerf. f2, so what. 241+2? He has to get in for that to even be an option and that is hard for KL.
Is Jax vs. Kitana still the same after the buff he got and the nerf she got?
It was 7-3 still when he got his new armor :en dash punch. Nothing has changed that lets him in any easier. I'd say yes, but it's way too early to tell.
Yuo got a point. i'll add ya, and we can do some studying about it if you don't mind.
What are your guys' tips on the matchup against Kabal? I find him very hard to fight and I'm very unfamiliar with his combo strings...
I don't have Internet at home and I don't play online anyways.
For the Official Matchup Chart: Kitana Matchups by Konqrr
6.5-3.5 - Baraka
He has a really hard time getting in and building meter. His fullscreen armor blade helps a little
6-4 - Cyber Sub-Zero
Kitana controls the air which shuts down dive kick. He has a hard time getting in. Teleport is punished by 2~lift
4.5-5.5 - Cyrax
Kitana gets edged out by 75% one bar reset combos. Matchup is a zoning war. Footsies.
6-4 - Ermac
Blocked lift or teleport means 45% combo. Push shuts down iAF from anywhere but fullscreen, but is nullified by dash blocking. 3/4 screen whiffed push nets Kitana 40% one bar. Ermac unsafe moves are extremely unsafe when blocked where Kitana's unsafe moves are not punished by big damage.
4-6 - Freddy
Entirely theory fighter. Teleport is punished just like Smoke's. Glove throw just like Kano's knives. Ground blades are just like Shang's up skulls.
5-5 - Jade
Heavily discussed and argued matchup. I personally feel it is even because of the damage output of Kitana and how insanely unsafe the boomerangs are which Kitana can jump over and punish with 40%. But it could be in Jade's favor. I just don't have that much exp in this matchup.
6.5-3.5 - Jax
Jax has an extremely hard time getting in without meter, but once he is in, it is very difficult to get him off of you. Jax wins if he corners you. CD and CDjr can tune in here.
6-4 - Johnny Cage
He has a hard time building meter until he gets in. He has a hard time getting in. Cage f32 whiffs if Kitana blocks the 3 and ducks the 2. She can then punish with a full combo.
4-6 - Kabal
Kabal owns the air where Kitana reigns. True iABGs hit Kitana out of ground fan throw which is her only option against iAGB until she is in range. Once Kitana gets in, Kabal's up close game is much better than hers so she must rely on fan damage and projectile advantage to get him to the corner.
4-6 - Kano
Was 7-3 before knife and upball were nerfed, now it's 6-4. He still outzones her with knives.
3.5-6.5 - Kenshi
Kenshi is THE anti-Kitana character. He shuts her down in every aspect. She must make good reads (guess) to punish him, and punish hard when she does.
6-4 - Kung Lao
Even though Lao was nerfed yet again, he still extremely good. But like so many other characters, he has a hard time getting in safely.
4.5-5.5 - Liu Kang
Footsies. Zoning battle. Liu's low fireball completely shuts down her iAF game. d1 is punished by b312 into 37% or 43% in the corner with no meter.
4.5-5.5 - Mileena
Kitana must be very careful throwing fans. She must slowly get Mileena to the corner where she can pressure Mileena into doing tk or ex tk which Kitana can punish.
6-4 - Nightwolf
d1 completely shuts down Nightwolf's offense. Nightwolf f31 is duckable on the second hit and punished by full combo. Kitana has no safe answer to avoid unblockable lightning after a shoulder charge.
6-4 - Noob Saibot
Kitana almost always gets the first hit bonus with d1 (blocked shadow is punished by ff~d1). Up shadow is punished by f21 or ex fan. Once Noob is cornered, he has no safe way out and he gets cornered easily.
6-4 - Quan Chi
4-6 - Raiden
Raiden with meter shuts down any fan throws. Superman hits, you are cornered. Teleport gets Raiden in for free on any fan throw for f24 chip. It's Raiden.
5-5 - Rain
I'll let CD or CDjr do this one.
4.5-5.5 - Reptile
Kitana has no answer for forceball after she is knocked down. She is hit with dash if she tried square boost then she is back in the mixup again. She can safely throw iAF on Reptile all day until he has Xray.
6-4 - Scorpion
16-bit vs Slips
5-5 - Sektor
16-bit vs Sektroll
4-6 - Shang Tsung
I do not have much exp here. From what I have experienced, she has no safe distance to throw iAF except from absolute fullscreen. Shang's f434 whiffs a ducking blocking Kitana on the second hit, she can mash d1 to get out.
7-3 - Sheeva
Telestomp is a non-issue due to square boost. You can iAF all day on Sheeva and there isn't much she can do about it.
6-4 - Sindel
Sindel afb hits you, 8%. Kitana air fan hits you, she gets 30-35% from fullscreen. Kitana punishes much harder.
5-5 - Skarlet
No high level exp in this matchup, but with the dash and knife nerfs I put it even.
6-4 - Smoke
iAF all smoke bombs, if close enough she can use ex for a full combo. Footsies range (just outside sweep distance), Smoke has NO safe options. Everything option he has is punished. Shake is a non-issue because Kitana does not fight Smoke with iAF or ground fans.
6-4 - Sonya Blade
Sonya has a hard time getting in and cannot punish d1 with anything but dive kick in anticipation.
5.5-4.5 - Stryker
Stryker's new armor on ex roll helps him a lot in this matchup. Before, Kitana could d1 him out of whatever roll he tried. She can still get in on him easily by dashing and d1 (ff~d1). If roll is anticipated, she can njp for 35-40%. Could be 5-5 or 5.5 for Stryker once more time has passed and his buffs are fully fleshed out.
5.5-4.5 - Sub-Zero
Freeze trade is not in Kitana's favor with extra 10 frames on iceball. Sub's corner game is very difficult for Kitana, square boost is punished by slide or ex slide (back in the corner) every time.
TOTAL = 158
I have some post Devastation thoughts. Played a lot of games with Tyrant's Jax and Tom and Shoryuken's Subs.
I can't accept Cage being a better match than Jax. I'm now a huge believer in him. Yeah we zone him out but he's got better tools for dealing with that than Cage and if he corners you it's over. It's ridiculous, it's the sickest corner pressure in MK.
And Sub is still really bad for him. I'd go 6-4 minimum. Increased freeze duration barely matters cause you rarely trade and EX Slide was a non-factor. Corner pressure isn't THAT bad. As long as you just chill and wait for the right moment to ass out I could ass away to safety far more often than I was punished. Tom did punish ass with X-Ray a couple times though.
I still feel ass is the move that's talked about being punished more than it actually is. I always feel like Kitana players are sometimes their own worst enemies, overly spooking themselves about what might be punished. I mean in general not just the Sub match. Same with d+1 and other Kit stuff. You gotta see it like, if they're busy trying to scout ass, they're not playing their game.