Match-Up Discussion - Kano Kano's Ruthless Matchup Discussion Thread

[FlappyDaniel]

Yeah Kano is kind of always in the defensive position against him. If this dude came in the thread and gave us either some things about scorpion that we can actually use to help as a kano player, or some things even that scorpions try to do to Kano or that he's noticed kanos like to do to him that really rustle his jimmies, then we could have an intelligent discussion and try and level up your knowledge of the Scorpion v Kano on the scorpion side of things by helping you find answers or by helping us find answers. You coming in and making blanket statements without backing anything up or proving your point doesn't serve any purpose. Make a status about your online Kano salt next time instead of bringing it in here, thanks.

 

[Youphemism]

Yeah Kano is kind of always in the defensive position against him. If this dude came in the thread and gave us either some things about scorpion that we can actually use to help as a kano player, or some things even that scorpions try to do to Kano or that he's noticed kanos like to do to him that really rustle his jimmies, then we could have an intelligent discussion and try and level up your knowledge of the Scorpion v Kano on the scorpion side of things by helping you find answers or by helping us find answers. You coming in and making blanket statements without backing anything up or proving your point doesn't serve any purpose. Make a status about your online Kano salt next time instead of bringing it in here, thanks.

You know you can quote people right? Lol

 

[OutworldKeith]

A weakness of another character is very important in a MU thread.

Army stuff guy, you wouldn't understand.

CT has really good pressure period. Just because it isn't a mindless rushdown like MK9 Cage doesn't mean it's not really good.

I actually play Kano, Kotal, and KL to name a few. You shouldn't assume like that.

Never said I knew him better than anyone but the point is I know him. CT is the best variation against Scorpion in general, which was my original point dude! I never said it was easy. In fact, I said I don't believe he beats Scorpion.

Stay Free!

 

[Youphemism]

A weakness of another character is very important in a MU thread.

Army stuff guy, you wouldn't understand.

CT has really good pressure period. Just because it isn't a mindless rushdown like MK9 Cage doesn't mean it's not really good.

I actually play Kano, Kotal, and KL to name a few. You shouldn't assume like that.

Never said I knew him better than anyone but the point is I know him. CT is the best variation against Scorpion in general, which was my original point dude! I never said it was easy. In fact, I said I don't believe he beats Scorpion.

Stay Free!

Knowing characters weaknesses are important but it's not worth discussing if one person is coming into the matchup discussion of another character speaking falsities about them.

Ah army guy, I get it now

CT doesn't have "really good pressure", 'period', he barely has any plus frames in the first place. Sorry if you're too scared to poke out when you're at advantage but it doesn't mean you can't do it or your character is worse. Scorpion vs Kano is advantageous for Scorpion in general so if you're losing then it's most probably that you don't know something about the matchup and in this case it's how to deal with Kano's close-up game.

You play Kano? Really? If you did you would've contributed to Kano discussion and you would actually know the character which you don't seem to. So I'm not assuming anything. You also have a Scorpion banner so it's safe to say he's your main, not Kano like us.

So stop whining about his "really good pressure" and try asking the people who actually know what they're talking about when it comes to Kano about how to deal with him. Maybe then you won't look like a twat using ad hominem to disguise your blatantly incorrect posts.

 

[OutworldKeith]

@Youphemism @FlappyDaniel @Smoke_Of_Finland

GENERAL:

- All of his Specials can be full combo punished.
- Has trouble on his wakeup especially in the corner.
- TP cancel (Hold Down) is punishable.
- Kano excels when he corners Scorpion.
- Always block low
​

INFERNO:

- Low/OH Minion is punished by dashing or running to full combo.
- Minion Charge has blockstun, so its truly -8.
- Low/OH Minions are extremely unsafe.
- 214 xx TP Cancel (Hold forward) will let him escape. You can check him with Knife throw.
- Has trouble building meter in this variation.
​

NINJUTSU:

- Kano can't punish F2 when it's spaced correctly. He can check him with F2 though.
- Back dash is very important in the MU. You need it to make F2 whiff. (Ninjutsu's best move)
- F2 usually follows a D4 on hit.
- B2 is punishable no matter how its spaced.
- Scorpion will throw a lot in this MU to condition you to try throw techs. Then he'll mixup with F2 to punish you.
- Try not to use low pokes that often. F2 punishes the crap out of them.

​

I'll do Hellfire when I get back from the gym fellas

 

[Youphemism]

@Youphemism @FlappyDaniel @Smoke_Of_Finland

GENERAL:

- All of his Specials can be full combo punished.
- Has trouble on his wakeup especially in the corner.
- TP cancel (Hold Down) is punishable.
- Kano excels when he corners Scorpion.
- Always block low
​

INFERNO:

- Low/OH Minion is punished by dashing or running to full combo.
- Minion Charge has blockstun, so its truly -8.
- Low/OH Minions are extremely unsafe.
- 214 xx TP Cancel (Hold forward) will let him escape. You can check him with Knife throw.
- Has trouble building meter in this variation.
​

NINJUTSU:

- Kano can't punish F2 when it's spaced correctly. He can check him with F2 though.
- Back dash is very important in the MU. You need it to make F2 whiff. (Ninjutsu's best move)
- F2 usually follows a D4 on hit.
- B2 is punishable no matter how its spaced.
- Scorpion will throw a lot in this MU to condition you to try throw techs. Then he'll mixup with F2 to punish you.
- Try not to use low pokes that often. F2 punishes the crap out of them.

​

I'll do Hellfire when I get back from the gym fellas

If this is supposed to be a "how to deal with Scorpion" we already know, that's how we know it's a disadvantageous matchup for Kano. This is useless for the people you've tagged...jesus.

Also some of this is wrong as well hahahahaha

He doesn't have trouble on wakeup if you make a good read since he has that, you know, armoured EX teleport. And I'm pretty sure he can low profile or get through some things with EX Slide.
Always block low? Well alright, I'm sure I won't get hit by any....oh I dunno...F2s.

Saying demons are unsafe in two different ways doesn't make it another point, stop downplaying.
Why would you check him with knife throw? 214 is safe anyway and Knife Toss is a high. Jesus christ...

How - is F2 on block exactly?
F2 after D4 on hit is player specific, not a matchup knowledge thing. You could run up grab after D4 on hit too, or 214 or anything. A better idea would just be to tell us how + on hit it is so we know not to press button after it.
B2 is punishable, thanks for the vague statement. How punishable exactly? How minus on block? Details dude, details. That's how matchup discussion works.
Again that's player specific, some might just try to play footsies.

 

[FlappyDaniel]

I don't mind if you give us stuff to go off like the info above, even if some is rudimentary. My original point was just that you came in with general info instead of anything concrete or usable, swapping info is always good. Cheers.

 

[OutworldKeith]

If this is supposed to be a "how to deal with Scorpion" we already know, that's how we know it's a disadvantageous matchup for Kano. This is useless for the people you've tagged...jesus.

Also some of this is wrong as well hahahahaha

He doesn't have trouble on wakeup if you make a good read since he has that, you know, armoured EX teleport. And I'm pretty sure he can low profile or get through some things with EX Slide.
Always block low? Well alright, I'm sure I won't get hit by any....oh I dunno...F2s.

Saying demons are unsafe in two different ways doesn't make it another point, stop downplaying.
Why would you check him with knife throw? 214 is safe anyway and Knife Toss is a high. Jesus christ...

How - is F2 on block exactly?
F2 after D4 on hit is player specific, not a matchup knowledge thing. You could run up grab after D4 on hit too, or 214 or anything. A better idea would just be to tell us how + on hit it is so we know not to press button after it.
B2 is punishable, thanks for the vague statement. How punishable exactly? How minus on block? Details dude, details. That's how matchup discussion works.
Again that's player specific, some might just try to play footsies.

Scorpion's wakeup attacks are easily baited. EX TP can be stuffed before the armor even activates guy. Both his OHs can be fuzzy guarded, so yes you block low by default.

People aren't punishing fools who use demons in block strings... The have little to no block stun and people are still blind to this.

IDK what game you're playing man. 214 is unsafe unless its canceled into FB or TP.

F2 in NINJUTSU has different frame data depending on the spacing. Idk the exact numbers but it has to be at least -8. You should already know not to press buttons after any D4 on hit guy.

Is full combo punish not explanation enough for you? Would you like to know the exact combo you should use?

Let's just play I can show you better than I can tell you.

 

[Youphemism]

Scorpion's wakeup attacks are easily baited. EX TP can be stuffed before the armor even activates guy. Both his OHs can be fuzzy guarded, so yes you block low by default.

People aren't punishing fools who use demons in block strings... The have little to no block stun and people are still blind to this.

IDK what game you're playing man. 214 is unsafe unless its canceled into FB or TP.

F2 in NINJUTSU has different frame data depending on the spacing. Idk the exact numbers but it has to be at least -8. You should already know not to press buttons after any D4 on hit guy.

Is full combo punish not explanation enough for you? Would you like to know the exact combo you should use?

Let's just play I can show you better than I can tell you.

They're easily baited if you're easily conditioned. Baiting is on the player, not the character. And that's what I was saying about EX Slide, it can go through people attempting to stuff EX Teleport. You can fuzzy guard a 14/15 frame overhead? I think not.

That's not true, I was testing punishing them from a distance with run recently and low minion has deceptively longer blockstun than you'd think. What's the block advnatage on the overhead one? I haven't seen anyone punish one yet and it seems like Scorpion might even be at advantage because he seems to be able to poke first from any Scorpion player I've seen do it.

214 has pushback though, no?

I asked you what it was on block, it's a simple question. No "at this spacing" or "from this position", just look at the frame data and tell me what it says under block advantage for F2.

What's the point in saying "full combo punish"? Full combo punish with what? Can I full combo punish with an 11 frame F4 or do I have to use my 8 frame standing 2 because it's not that full combo punishable? Say you're a Mileena main, is it -12 or -42? That's important because if it's -42 she can go for max damage but if it's -12 she can't. You're really making it hard for yourself, I'm asking you simple questions and you can't even answer them properly.

You can show me what? Frame data? That would make no sense and no difference. I know that Scorpion beats Kano and that's not going to change if we play.

 

[Rude]

What is the "good" pressure?

The staggered block strings mixed up with grabs are a huge bill imo. Gets destroyed by the defensive option selects. Against b1-based stagger string pressure, you can literally hold block while mashing grab and you will grab Kano before he grabs you any time he prematurely ends a string and tries to grab you, due to the fact that Kano is negative on all parts of it.

There are a couple ways Kano can try to blow this up but they aren't that great either. B31 is ok in a vacuum (at least you are +1) but pitiful compared to what other characters have.

Kano has some redeeming qualities but pressure isn't one of them imo.

You could probably duck the reversal grab. I don't think the answer to all b1 pressure is mash grab.

B13 is only -1.

 

[OutworldKeith]

Its not hard. Maybe because I play SF as well, and it's so much faster.

No, you run by it on its startup. I mad a video on it a while ago. http://testyourmight.com/threads/demon-defense-101.52522/

OH demon is absolutely punishable. Most people hold block too long and miss the punish. After it touches you you can let go of block and punish.

F2,1,2 punishes 214.

-14 but only when scorpion is literally touching the opponent. It changes based on the distance which is not in the games frame data menu.

Well I'm not even a mileena user. It means you go for the combo of your choice. Some moves can be punished but only by single attacks. This isn't science.

MU experience. Clearly you have no idea how to fight against the character.

 

[SaltShaker]

@OutworldKeith

I don't know if you're trying to say that this MU isn't that bad or something, but speaking of experience, I have a ton of it against a couple of really, really good Scorpion players both offline/online, and I can safely safe this MU sucks.

I would assume most of the things you posted are known, if some aren't, every single one is known to me and I counter anything unsafe on reaction at this point. What you are describing sounds more like "online lobby" Scorpion play than anyone who can be taken serious with him. All Scorpions specials are punishable? So are Kano's. Always block low? Oh you mean like against Kano? People aren't punishing demons? Who are these "people" you speak of? "Reacting" to the faster OH? Bill City. Nothing you've said is ground breaking or changes the MU in any way, some is just wrong, and some of it is in a vacuum. Then you close your "breakdown" post without "breaking down" Hellfire, the worst variation to deal with.

I feel like your original idea was to say how Cutthroat does better against Scorpion than the other two variations do, which is true. That he dominates Scorpion in the corner, which is also true. You should have left it there. Cutthroat does not have this "good pressure period" that you speak of. Do you know what that looks like? Lao, Erron, Cage, Sonya, Jax, etc. Kano is no where nearrrrrr their level of pressure in any variation. These "weaknesses" Scorpion has are far outweighed by his strengths, which help him in this MU more than a lot of others.

If you think Kano's pressure is "tough for Scorpion" I have to wonder what you're doing with the character. From your posts, it would appear that you are the one who doesn't know how to play the MU, thinking it to be more challenging than it really is for Scorpion, rather than the other way around as you've suggested towards some people.

 

[Youphemism]

Its not hard. Maybe because I play SF as well, and it's so much faster.

No, you run by it on its startup. I mad a video on it a while ago. http://testyourmight.com/threads/demon-defense-101.52522/

OH demon is absolutely punishable. Most people hold block too long and miss the punish. After it touches you you can let go of block and punish.

F2,1,2 punishes 214.

-14 but only when scorpion is literally touching the opponent. It changes based on the distance which is not in the games frame data menu.

Well I'm not even a mileena user. It means you go for the combo of your choice. Some moves can be punished but only by single attacks. This isn't science.

MU experience. Clearly you have no idea how to fight against the character.

Lol playing SF doesn't mean you can react faster, the overheads in that game are like 20 frames. And yet again with your ambiguously worded sentences... If you're suggesting SF is a faster game than MKX in terms of startup on moves then yeah but if you're suggesting it's more fast-paced that's just plain wrong.

You suggest people run by it on reaction? That video is a huge bill, you even get caught out by the demons several times. Noone's going to risk running by it because they'll get full comb punished.

Oh great another vague statement, that'll help. What is it on block then?

Well that's just one variation so yeah. Plus if you knew that then you wouldn't ever do 214 raw.

-14, that's all you need to say. That's the only relevant part of your answer to my question.

Dude what is your problem? Just tell me the bloody block advantage on B2, jesus christ. How can you not answer simple questions with simple answers? You're trying to tell me it's not a science but it seems to be that way for you since you can't even tell me something as simple as frame data. Makes me think you don't know the character yourself.

Hahahahaha clearly I don't know the matchup? You're the one that's coming in here telling me Kano has "really good pressure" when in reality you're just not good in the matchup and can't even tell me simple frame data about your OWN character. Are you saying Scorpion doesn't beat Kano?

 

[Paul the Octopus]

You could probably duck the reversal grab. I don't think the answer to all b1 pressure is mash grab.

B13 is only -1.

Yep Kano can duck or neutral jump the reversal grab. Duck is better because you can punish the whiffed grab with 112. Kano's instant njp whiffs most the time (at least for me, I may have tested this option wrong).

Mash grab is still a good option for the defender though, which weakens an already weak cybernetic Kano pressure game.

 

[Rude]

Yep Kano can duck or neutral jump the reversal grab. Duck is better because you can punish the whiffed grab with 112. Kano's instant njp whiffs most the time (at least for me, I may have tested this option wrong).

Mash grab is still a good option for the defender though, which weakens an already weak cybernetic Kano pressure game.

Not really. How many reversal throws do you think they'll get away with?

I'm pretty sure you'd pick up on it pretty fast. Do b1, bait the reversal throw and punish.

I'd be more worried about an armored reversal than a throw, to be honest. Something like a mb Cage Nutpunch. Which is a common concern for anyone initiating pressure since mb launcher reversals are a big deal in this game.

 

[Paul the Octopus]

Not really. How many reversal throws do you think they'll get away with?

I'm pretty sure you'd pick up on it pretty fast. Do b1, bait the reversal throw and punish.

I'd be more worried about an armored reversal than a throw, to be honest. Something like a mb Cage Nutpunch. Which is a common concern for anyone initiating pressure since mb launcher reversals are a big deal in this game.

Yes armored reversal also hurts Kano pressure.

Regarding the grab - in order to bait the reversal throw you need to duck, not blocking at negative frames, point blank. This is a dangerous thing to do in a game like mkx. If I think you will do this, instead of reversal grab, I will press a button and hit you since you are neutral ducking without blocking at negative frames.

Perhaps I worded my previous post to strongly - the point I'm really making is not that you can never do b1 stagger pressure. It's that reversal grab (or armored special) is an effective option for the defender to consider which makes Kano pressure worse than it would be otherwise. And many Kano opponents are still respecting the pressure too much instead of using any of these options.

 

[Rude]

Yes armored reversal also hurts Kano pressure.

Regarding the grab - in order to bait the reversal throw you need to duck, not blocking at negative frames, point blank. This is a dangerous thing to do in a game like mkx. If I think you will do this, instead of reversal grab, I will press a button and hit you since you are neutral ducking without blocking at negative frames.

Perhaps I worded my previous post to strongly - the point I'm really making is not that you can never do b1 stagger pressure. It's that reversal grab (or armored special) is an effective option for the defender to consider which makes Kano pressure worse than it would be otherwise. And many Kano opponents are still respecting the pressure too much instead of using any of these options.

You can't visually see the difference of b1 and b13 on reaction. Also, you're only at -2. It's not that bad.

If you read that I'm trying to bait a throw reversal of course you can blow it up. That's the meta game, isn't it? If you're in a situation where we have to out think each other to come out on top, then i think It's fine. Plus, he could always do b13, mb knives into + frames, downpoke for + frames after that, etc. Simply tapping throw isn't a cure all answer.

Also, mb reversals is a problem that makes everyone's pressure worse, not just Kano. Even characters with cancel pressure have to think about armored reversals if they try anything other than the next repetition of what's uninterruptable. Anything else and they too, could be armored through their + frames if there is even a frame to to do, the reversal system making this easier to do than ever before.

 

[Diaphone]

If you are playing cybernetic, you WANT opponents to do an armor reversal in your pressure. Easiest way for an opponent to get opened up is to let them hang themselves, and if they want to hang themselves against a character with poor mix up and punish capabilities, let them do that.

You want to armor reversal very little against cybernetic, but against someone like commando kano, who has better mixup capabilities but poorer punish options, you want to reversal armor more because the risk/reward is more in your favor.

 

[Rude]

If you're that worried about throw Reversals, you can:

Duck and punish(we covered that)
Nuetral jump(we covered that)
Use mb Kano Ball or Up ball
Cross up.

If you cross up, the reversal throw whiffs and you get a jump in punch to more pressure. In fact, if you cross over jump punched into b13, you're spaced well enough for d4 check, or f4, or 2,f4.

If you read a counterpoke you can d4 inti knife and interrupt it, giving you + frames on hit. If you think they will armor, do d4 into mb knife and you will beat that option.

If they're mashing a throw as a reversal option during b1 pressure and you link in mb knife after b1, the throw starts to come out BUT you can interrupt it with a properly timed b13 or a downpoke.

If they mash reversal throw after mb knife linked from b13, you can get a full punish off 112.
You can also do b1 and if you read a reversal you can mb laser. Or you can jump back.

These are just some of the ways I've found to blow up that option.

It's fine

 

[MsMiharo]

Although I don't think b13 pressure is great, backdash will pew pew most attempts to reversal out of it. B1, B13, B13+Laser are all pretty safe to backdash from.

 

[Rude]

Although I don't think b13 pressure is great, backdash will pew pew most attempts to reversal out of it. B1, B13, B13+Laser are all pretty safe to backdash from.

It's not amazing, no.

But it's a tool in Cyber's kit and he has to use it. In lieu of any buffs Cyber mains have to make the most of the tools they have.

 

[MsMiharo]

It's not amazing, no.

But it's a tool in Cyber's kit and he has to use it. In lieu of any buffs Cyber mains have to make the most of the tools they have.

As a cyber main it's a staple of my gameplay. I just didn't see it mentioned.

 

[OutworldKeith]

@OutworldKeith

I don't know if you're trying to say that this MU isn't that bad or something, but speaking of experience, I have a ton of it against a couple of really, really good Scorpion players both offline/online, and I can safely safe this MU sucks.

I would assume most of the things you posted are known, if some aren't, every single one is known to me and I counter anything unsafe on reaction at this point. What you are describing sounds more like "online lobby" Scorpion play than anyone who can be taken serious with him. All Scorpions specials are punishable? So are Kano's. Always block low? Oh you mean like against Kano? People aren't punishing demons? Who are these "people" you speak of? "Reacting" to the faster OH? Bill City. Nothing you've said is ground breaking or changes the MU in any way, some is just wrong, and some of it is in a vacuum. Then you close your "breakdown" post without "breaking down" Hellfire, the worst variation to deal with.

I feel like your original idea was to say how Cutthroat does better against Scorpion than the other two variations do, which is true. That he dominates Scorpion in the corner, which is also true. You should have left it there. Cutthroat does not have this "good pressure period" that you speak of. Do you know what that looks like? Lao, Erron, Cage, Sonya, Jax, etc. Kano is no where nearrrrrr their level of pressure in any variation. These "weaknesses" Scorpion has are far outweighed by his strengths, which help him in this MU more than a lot of others.

If you think Kano's pressure is "tough for Scorpion" I have to wonder what you're doing with the character. From your posts, it would appear that you are the one who doesn't know how to play the MU, thinking it to be more challenging than it really is for Scorpion, rather than the other way around as you've suggested towards some people.

If you read my OP you would see that I believed CT was the variation that should be used, and Scorpion beats him period. CT can exploit the areas where he's weak.

Wasn't a breakdown. Just simple tips.

The pressure is good in CT. Again, just because it's not braindead doesn't mean you can't work it.

Never said that either. In fact any of Scorpion's variations can beat Kano with ease.

 

[Paul the Octopus]

You can't visually see the difference of b1 and b13 on reaction. Also, you're only at -2. It's not that bad.

If you read that I'm trying to bait a throw reversal of course you can blow it up. That's the meta game, isn't it? If you're in a situation where we have to out think each other to come out on top, then i think It's fine. Plus, he could always do b13, mb knives into + frames, downpoke for + frames after that, etc. Simply tapping throw isn't a cure all answer.

Also, mb reversals is a problem that makes everyone's pressure worse, not just Kano. Even characters with cancel pressure have to think about armored reversals if they try anything other than the next repetition of what's uninterruptable. Anything else and they too, could be armored through their + frames if there is even a frame to to do, the reversal system making this easier to do than ever before.

Yep I agree with all that. That is indeed the meta game with Kano pressure. You both have options and if you make the right read as Kano you can do some damage.

However, when most other characters get in a position to apply pressure, their risk/reward is much more in their favor, with many having 50/50s (with at least one safe option) and/or massively plus block pressure.

My original point was that Kano pressure was not "rather good." I admit I exaggerated by saying option select reversal grab destroys his pressure - I never actually meant that it's nonexistent and he has no options and doing b1 is a death sentence. Just that his pressure is quite weak compared to the cast. Just look how many options and counter options you need to consider, as you nicely laid out. Other characters just do whatever they want with little repercussions.

(I'm talking about his pressure game specifically, not saying all parts of Kano are bad.)

 

[Rude]

Yep I agree with all that. That is indeed the meta game with Kano pressure. You both have options and if you make the right read as Kano you can do some damage.

However, when most other characters get in a position to apply pressure, their risk/reward is much more in their favor, with many having 50/50s (with at least one safe option) and/or massively plus block pressure.

My original point was that Kano pressure was not "rather good." I admit I exaggerated by saying option select reversal grab destroys his pressure - I never actually meant that it's nonexistent and he has no options and doing b1 is a death sentence. Just that his pressure is quite weak compared to the cast. Just look how many options and counter options you need to consider, as you nicely laid out. Other characters just do whatever they want with little repercussions.

(I'm talking about his pressure game specifically, not saying all parts of Kano are bad.)

It is weaker than the rest of the cast. That's true. Maybe not the weakest but it definitely falls short compared to pressure monsters like Kung Lao.

I think they should return Kano's b1 recovery, but keep it -. Still, Cyber players have to use it.

Man...i miss pre-patch b1.