Question Is Sub Zero completely non-tournament viable?

[Fatality_check]

I'd just be happy with 2 hitting all characters crouching/crouch blocking.

 

[Bidu]

That's what I been saying for quite a while now. Couldn't agree more. In my honest opinion it's what Sub need most.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Lol ... too bad it won't happen. oh wells.

 

[salvificblood]

Johnny Cage is a true 5-5. I don't care what anyone says. His pokes go through clones... and he can lock Sub with the same effectiveness that Sub can keep him out.

I dunno about a naked freeze. I mean... you normally are trading 7-9% so you can get a 20% or more combo. I still think the problem lies in ... exClone is dooooooooooody and 2 should be hitting all crouch BLOCKING characters.
Dave had the best idea for exClone.... no proximity and it can't be penetrated.

I don't agree with Dave's suggestion for this character. The ex clone breaking the proximity rule and breaking armour would be the most overpowered move in the game, in my opinion. You could end any and all pressure for absolutely free. In between all of Cage's pressure you could just ex clone and get a free combo. It would be so broken. He laughed at the idea of Sub getting a way around zoning (which he could actually do with) and then suggested Sub gets a way out of any and all pressure for free with a combo to boot, lol.

 

[GGA soonk]

I don't agree with Dave's suggestion for this character. The ex clone breaking the proximity rule and breaking armour would be the most overpowered move in the game, in my opinion. You could end any and all pressure for absolutely free. In between all of Cage's pressure you could just ex clone and get a free combo. It would be so broken. He laughed at the idea of Sub getting a way around zoning (which he could actually do with) and then suggested Sub gets a way out of any and all pressure for free with a combo to boot, lol.

kinda like.... EX nutpunch? EX Nomad dash? EX cartwheel?

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Considering all of the other broken and dirty shit in the game... I'm tired of suggesting "balanced" things.
Why not make EVERY character fear coming in on me? I mean... everyone fears Johnny Cage getting in on them. Sonya and Rain with a meter are very scary to approach... why not Sub? WHY NOT!!!! WHY FREAKING NOT!!!!

 

[salvificblood]

kinda like.... EX nutpunch? EX Nomad dash? EX cartwheel?

Ex ice clone would be punishable by what, though?

Considering all of the other broken and dirty shit in the game... I'm tired of suggesting "balanced" things.
Why not make EVERY character fear coming in on me? I mean... everyone fears Johnny Cage getting in on them. Sonya and Rain with a meter are very scary to approach... why not Sub? WHY NOT!!!! WHY FREAKING NOT!!!!

Sub already has that factor with the regular ice clone. If people are coming to you, you should be really happy as a Sub player, that's what you want them to do!

The last character I want to see get something really bs is my own, in all honesty.

 

[GGA soonk]

If it was blocked to disappear, anything faster than 36 frames, which is, idk, just about anything in the game.

 

[salvificblood]

If it was blocked to disappear, anything faster than 36 frames, which is, idk, just about anything in the game.

Surely you can see that requirement for punishing it is ridiculous? How many times has somebody dash blocked into your clone, right after you've put it out and then combo punished you for it? It hasn't happened to me once. There have been times when the clone has broken due to proximity and I've been punished but never what you're suggesting.

Buff would be too good. I am not trying to make a case for Sub not getting any attention, but we're asking for something completely ridiculous here.

 

[GGA soonk]

Surely you can see that requirement for punishing it is ridiculous? How many times has somebody dash blocked into your clone, right after you've put it out and then combo punished you for it? It hasn't happened to me once. There have been times when the clone has broken due to proximity and I've been punished but never what you're suggesting.

Buff would be too good. I am not trying to make a case for Sub not getting any attention, but we're asking for something completely ridiculous here.

Well the thing is, if Cage is in your face, and reads the EX clone, he'll be blocking, so it will break automatically just like it had been broken due to proximity.

With that said, it's not even a buff I would want. The 2 hitting mid would be the best thing for Sub.

 

[salvificblood]

Well the thing is, if Cage is in your face, and reads the EX clone, he'll be blocking, so it will break automatically just like it had been broken due to proximity.

With that said, it's not even a buff I would want. The 2 hitting mid would be the best thing for Sub.

It would destroy the Cage matchup because every time Sub had a bar, opposed to Cage eating an ex slide and being pushed full screen again, he'd also have to watch for the ex clone. He'd never be able to pressure Sub-Zero because by having to respect your option of ex cloning, you'd always have a free way out of the Cage.

2 hits mid it just doesn't hit those low hitbox characters when they're neutral crouching or crouch blocking. I'd like to see it fixed, too. It's not even a buff in this case, however, it's a *FIX*.

 

[Enenra]

Why are any of you worried about Sub Zero being too good? You don't want him to ruin any and all things in his way? I'm sure Kabal and Sonya aren't worried about being too good, Smoke's resets aren't worried about being too good, Cyrax isn't worried about being to damaging, Kabal isn't worried about being too fast, Jax isn't worried about being too armored, I mean come on. NRS can say no as they please. With all the dirty characters in top 10, Sub Zero can be as dirty as he wants to be.

 

[salvificblood]

Why are any of you worried about Sub Zero being too good? You don't want him to ruin any and all things in his way? I'm sure Kabal and Sonya aren't worried about being too good, Smoke's resets aren't worried about being too good, Cyrax isn't worried about being to damaging, Kabal isn't worried about being too fast, Jax isn't worried about being too armored, I mean come on. NRS can say no as they please. With all the dirty characters in top 10, Sub Zero can be as dirty as he wants to be.

Honestly, I think I am done trying to suggest reasonable things for this character when everybody just seems to want an auto-win button. Having an auto-win button (for any character) means the game is no longer fun to play.

The fact there are broken things in the game does not mean we should suggest giving other characters more broken things. The bs in this game needs to be toned the hell down, not handed out like candy to all the characters who aren't top tier. Sub would do a lot better in a game with less easymode armour, retarded hitboxes and gargantuan resets.

*Rant over*. Please stop trying to kill Sub-Zero.

 

[Enenra]

Honestly, I think I am done trying to suggest reasonable things for this character when everybody just seems to want an auto-win button. Having an auto-win button (for any character) means the game is no longer fun to play.

The fact there are broken things in the game does not mean we should suggest giving other characters more broken things. The bs in this game needs to be toned the hell down, not handed out like candy to all the characters who aren't top tier. Sub would do a lot better in a game with less easymode armour, retarded hitboxes and gargantuan resets.

*Rant over*. Please stop trying to kill Sub-Zero.

Did you not read the goddamn part where I said NRS can say yes or no as they please? Who is looking for an auto win button? How is that fun? And how is any of this an insta win button? Let's take the most suggested buffs-
1. Slide under duckable projectiles
2. Faster Ice ball
3. Armor on EX freeze
4. Remove damage scaling on freeze
5. No proximity on EX ice clone
6. EX ice clone eats armor
7. 2 hit mid

The first THREE BUFFS are all suggested in an effort to make Sub Zero not get zoned so hard because that's why he sucks. He cannot win a fight against a heavy zoner. He can't. Dark_Rob lost to m2dave pretty consistently on stream, and he is probably in the top 2 or 3 Sub Zeros. Damage scaling on freeze is retarded. Retarded. Sub Zero does ass damage when his playstyle makes him out to be a tank. And no proximity on EX ice clone/ EX ice clone eats armor is an attempt to make his best move not useless against heavy pressure characters like Jax that have armor out the ass and crush Sub Zero. The last buff fixes something that is most likely a glitch because of 3D hitboxes.

No way should Sub Zero get all 7, he should get a way to deal with zoners, and he needs to stop doing ass damage. They also could make Sub Zero dominant in his preferred field (in your face, in the corner) when NRS is the reason he ever lost his edge. And 2 hitting mid would fix a glitch. 2 is obviously designed to hit the chars, it just doesn't because NRS is new and needs more experience.

And of course, all of this is in an effort to make Sub Zero a feared character in tournaments, and maybe top 10 or 5, like he used to be before NRS changed the game and not him.

 

[salvificblood]

Did you not read the goddamn part where I said NRS can say yes or no as they please? Who is looking for an auto win button? How is that fun? And how is any of this an insta win button? Let's take the most suggested buffs-
1. Slide under duckable projectiles
2. Faster Ice ball
3. Armor on EX freeze
4. Remove damage scaling on freeze
5. No proximity on EX ice clone
6. EX ice clone eats armor
7. 2 hit mid

The first THREE BUFFS are all suggested in an effort to make Sub Zero not get zoned so hard because that's why he sucks. He cannot win a fight against a heavy zoner. He can't. Dark_Rob lost to m2dave pretty consistently on stream, and he is probably in the top 2 or 3 Sub Zeros. Damage scaling on freeze is retarded. Retarded. Sub Zero does ass damage when his playstyle makes him out to be a tank. And no proximity on EX ice clone/ EX ice clone eats armor is an attempt to make his best move not useless against heavy pressure characters like Jax that have armor out the ass and crush Sub Zero. The last buff fixes something that is most likely a glitch because of 3D hitboxes.

No way should Sub Zero get all 7, he should get a way to deal with zoners, and he needs to stop doing ass damage. They also could make Sub Zero dominant in his preferred field (in your face, in the corner) when NRS is the reason he ever lost his edge. And 2 hitting mid would fix a glitch. 2 is obviously designed to hit the chars, it just doesn't because NRS is new and needs more experience.

And of course, all of this is in an effort to make Sub Zero a feared character in top 5 tournaments, like he used to be before NRS changed the game and not him.

Fix the 2 whiffing on low hitbox characters and allow the slide to go under duckable projectiles (which it should in the first place, it doesn't make sense as it is currently), but don't give him any of this other stuff. The other stuff is an overreaction to other bs in the game. Jax needs to have the armour taken away along with his corner reset. NRS handed out too much armour (their solution for Sub-Zero was to give him armour that didn't help him in any of his bad matchups, lol), and I am strictly against any and all suggestions for armour for any character from this point on. Armour is honestly like a cancer in this game, in my opinion.

Chances of NRS fixing this character: slim to none. Chances after seeing suggestions for ex clone having no proximity, etc: zero.

 

[M2Dave]

1. Slide under duckable projectiles
2. Faster Ice ball
3. Armor on EX freeze
4. Remove damage scaling on freeze
5. No proximity on EX ice clone
6. EX ice clone eats armor
7. 2 hit mid

The first three are not reasonable buffs. The last four are. You cannot eliminate the character's only weakness. I know some of you Sub Zero players would like to walk every single character in the corner and keep them there for the entire fight, but such request is not reasonable from a balance point of view. It is, however, reasonable to increase his damage and/or improve his corner game.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

What does enhanced clone even do? I never use it. lol

 

[GGA soonk]

Stays up longer. That's it.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Yeah I agree with Dave. I don't want to be able to just walk everyone to the corner. Zoners SHOULD have the chance to keep him at mid screen.
ExClone ... armor breaking and has the proximity that the current clone has with low kick pokes for all pokes. So... Kitana or JC or Jax can't simply rush up and d1 you out of an exClone... like they can a normal one. That seems fair. You can still "pop" it by dashing up and doing a normal attack... just not a poke.
2 hit all duck BLOCKING characters boxes.

That is it. I'd take those two things in a heart beat.

Currently the exClone simply lasts longer than the normal clone.

added bonus. I think the ice puddle should be active the moment it hits the ground. For fucks sake that move should have some type of gimmicky use.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Ice puddle just needs to be redone... I mean, if you throw it after they're frozen in the air... they fall on it and then fall down with no damage. It's so slow that if you don't get punished you're probably playing someone that's AFK. I mean really, if you get caught in the ice puddle, you weren't paying attention.

I don't think you can really improve it, no matter what properties you give it b/c of how slow it is. You'd have to up it's speed to make it worth anything.

I'd like to see ice puddle actually do what it used to... you know, be a trap that makes them slip if they touch it.

 

[Enenra]

The first three are not reasonable buffs. The last four are. You cannot eliminate the character's only weakness. I know some of you Sub Zero players would like to walk every single character in the corner and keep them there for the entire fight, but such request is not reasonable from a balance point of view. It is, however, reasonable to increase his damage and/or improve his corner game.

Kitana just lols at Sub Zero. Absolutely laughs at him. Osu 16 Bit commented about Denzel, "I wondered if he'd have the balls to use Sub Zero against me, but all of his boys said absolutely not. He would definitely go Liu Kang." The weakness is so glaring that it's why Sub Zero isn't viable. Perhaps not eliminate the weakness, but alleviate it so that when some one scrolls to an IAGF and Sub Zero doesn't just crap his pants. I don't see how making Sub viable translates to us wanting free wins, is it because the Sub Zero forum has a past history of whining so you assume the worst? Well, I wasn't here for that, but I am here for the bottom 5 project high lighting Sub Zeros glaring weaknesses making him most likely not tournie viable. My $.02

 

[Creepy00]

Love how you bringing up the subzero forums history when you are the one to bring this upon yourself. Should probably done research before posting, Another example about what the sub forums had become.

 

[Enenra]

Love how you bringing up the subzero forums history when you are the one to bring this upon yourself. Should probably done research before posting, Another example about what the sub forums had become.

So many things I want to say to this. I'll bottle it up because this is the internet.
The post that seems to have peaked your interest was me simply stating the 7 most popular buffs suggested not only by Sub Zero players, but Jax players, Freddy players, etc. Poor Subbzy has problems, he doesn't have invincibility frames on his teleport for a free way in like the character serving as your avatar, nor does he have huge resets that end the match in a combo for a bar. It even started a good conversation with m2dave, a very respected player, who stated his opinion any buffs completely removing a threat of zoning to Sub Zero would be excessive, while fixing glitches and giving him a way to control armor would be far superior for the overall balance.

 

[Metalic]

I'd like to see ice puddle actually do what it used to... you know, be a trap that makes them slip if they touch it.

For some reason I instantly had the visual of someone doing a cartoon-style banana peel fall in to an ice clone. Gave me a good laugh.

 

[salvificblood]

You know, the only reason Dave says it's unfair for Sub's slide to do what it should and the only reason he says ex clone having no proximity is fair is because he plays Freddy and his playstyle with Freddy, right or wrong, is to zone Sub-Zero to death. Any character who has to pressure Sub-Zero at some point to win would definitely think the idea for the ex clone is overpowered. Sorry, man, that's just the truth.

Slide going under duckable projectiles wouldn't help Sub against Kitana, Mileena or Kabal because they have iafb's and the slide whiffs even when they land right on top of it after an iafb. Sub's slide goes under Sonya's rings and how broken is that matchup? It's not at all. Sub's slide doing what it should wouldn't break any matchups, not even the Freddy matchup because he still has fullscreen frametraps and he'd still be able to hit you out of the slide with Freddy fingers (or whatever it's called).

Ex clone wouldn't help him AT ALL against zoners, it'd just help him in matchups he already does well enough in. But obviously, Sub deserves all the weaknesses he has so he can continue to get molested by fullscreen zoning with no safe way in even with solid reads. That's 100% fair.

All I am asking for are fixes, while most are asking for buffs.

1: Slide going under all duckable projectiles is what it should do, no question about it. It can be full combo punished on block, so the spacing and recovery of the projectile being thrown would have to be known and considered carefully by the Sub player and Sub can be hit out of it by any low fireball.

2: 2 not whiffing on neutral crouching or crouch blocking low hitbox characters is another fair fix. It means his pressure isn't 100% risky (which I am actually going to make a post on later), against the low hitbox characters. I don't understand why he's allowed to pressure everybody else with 21 but not low hitbox characters, the majority of which force him to chase them anyway.