Other Hypothetical Changes.

Discussion in 'Sub-Zero [Cyber]' started by UsedForGlue, Dec 19, 2011.

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  1. UsedForGlue

    UsedForGlue Patience is the key. Staff Member

    Hi Guys.

    I have been dying to show off this list for along time, it includes things I always thought CSZ should have had from the beginning, this is just observations and completely hypothetical, so take it with a pinch of salt, and don't freak out on me, I have been playing CSZ since around day one, and these are little changes to some his what ''tacked on'' play style.

    THROW:
    The animation takes too long for a rush down character. It should be as quick and close as KL or even Sektor. His current throw breaks up the game play the same as a grab from an opponent in boxing does, it doesn't work well with his rush down.

    NORMALS:

    :d:fp - very simple, but a better D1.
    :d:bk - Again simble, but a D4 that grants a pressure string on hit, good recovery with decent range.

    STRINGS:
    Short dive kicks should be Special cancel-able from :l:bp:bk, and :l:fk:bp - He has these options in the beta version of the game
    :r:fp:bk should be special cancel-able - He has this option in the beta version of the game
    :l:bp:bp should grant slightly more advantage on hit, currently it is +4 on hit.
    :l:bp:bp should also chain :en Ice Ball and Slide as a combo, but not regular ice balls. Currently it does not chain these as combos.

    PARRY:
    His parry should be reduced to 6% damage with no back to back ability as a result of having better pokes.
    :en version stays the same.

    ICE BALL:
    Same recovery and start up as human Sub Zero.
    Both sub zero's should have the opponent frozen for longer in the air after an :en ice beam.

    DIVE KICKS:
    Armour on :en far dive kick, with +9 advantage on hit. Meaning characters with 6 frame moves can still win a footsie game if he CSZ opts for :bp:fp pressure. Remember people, this is CSZ's punisher, it needs to be stronger than it is, having his :en far dive kick with the same safe/unsafe rules as before will not change the properties on a blocked dive kick at all, regardless of armour.

    BOMBS:
    The bombs should have the same start up and recovery as Cyrax's bombs, including the same ''Blast radius''

    The bombs should retain the same rules as they always have [Bombs will only freeze the opponent can block]

    Bombs should be allowed to be deployed after ice ball combos as they will never double freeze whilst the opponent is in his or her ''vulnerable'' frames.

    Bombs that do not ''Freeze'' the opponent, should no longer take 8% damage and knock the opponent away, but instead, put the opponent in Human Sub Zero's Floor freeze animation, in which the opponents feet and legs are froze, but it only grants a block string and not full combos, the length of time the opponent is stuck in the floor freeze should be slightly shortened.

    :en Bombs: should no longer be a set of three bombs. Instead, each range of bomb, for example, medium bomb :r:r:fk+:blk, the same start up and recovery, if not slightly less recovery time than Skarlets :en Dagger cancel, allowing you to quickly rush the opponent or set up traps quickly from anywhere. You would have three ranges of :en bomb, short, medium, far.

    SLIDE:
    The :en slide should be special cancel-able on hit, The animation of the second hit should carry over on block and allow another special to chain from his :r:bk animation that follows the slide, but only on hit. You should have to option to poke or even uppercut CSZ between the slide and :r:bk animation.

    TELEPORT:
    :en Teleport should stay as shit as it is.

    The current teleport should be changed to his ''Tag out'' animation which is the animation for sub zero's teleport in MKvsDC. This allowed him the option to parry after the teleport, although he could be hit with a d4 on reaction, but sub zero had a counter to that which was a small version of a jump forward allowing for a JIP. It was ultimately a guessing game.

    The opponent had to guess if sub zero would:
    Parry, in which a D4 would beat it out
    Small jump, which would beat a D4
    Block, which would beat specials or normals on reaction to sub zero starting a string.

    :x - X-Ray
    In the beta version of the game CSZ's :x on block used to wiff like an :en dive kick sometimes does now, which means, it was safe on block and provided slight advantage.

    I am stretching when I add this one, but I personally would love CSZ's :x to be combo-able afterwards, again, he is a rush down character, and his moves should represent that.

    Now you all know I main this character and I might be a bit biased, but this is all in good fun.

    Let me know what you think of my take on it.
    Ninj likes this.
  2. Alice

    Alice Haaave you met Sektor?

    XBL:
    N0an
    With all these changes he would be much stronger then now.
    A question:
    By the bomb after freeze you mean that some Cyrax like combos should open up? Becasue as I imagine it now
    as an uppercut drop the opp to the mid bomb even if he wouldn't freeze a slide could happen, or if it throws
    the opp towards you there is a possibility to extend a combo pretty much.
    Or open possibilites to refreeze, or set up some inescapable traps.
    That would be dope, but too much, no? Think this is the reason it did not happened, even if it won't refreeze in a combo, you can reset with it
    easily.

    With the wildcard combo and teleport changes another way would open up if I'm right. This would make his mixup gameplay insane

    I love your ideas really, opening up many other ways to fight with Csz. ^^

    And something to think of:
    - Changing the ex-slides is wise, but shouldn't they be cancelable anytime, except for block?
    It would give him a great rushdown tool, sliding under projectiles than special cancel (freeze or teleport,3,4)
    It takes a bar so it has it's cost but would make the ex slides much more useful, like Kabals dash, but with a cost.
  3. Rodnigh

    Rodnigh New Member

    i like all of those ideas, however i would be happy if they would just give him better pokes and have the bombs always freeze. i mean cyrax's bombs always launch and lead to alot more damage than csz bombs if they freeze.
  4. Flagg

    Flagg Well-Known Member

    He is still my best and favourite character. However, I sometimes think:

    "Does this character need armour? Most characters do, if he had armour on ex ice beam or slide or dive kick or teleport it would make him much better". Ex Ice beam means it wouldn't lose trade on normal projectiles, it would be a good wake up move and get out of pressure. The same with ex teleport, but you're very limited to what you can do off ex teleport. Not sure adding armour to his ex dive kicks would improve on anything he can't already do with ex dive kick.

    I've kind of gotten used to the fact he doesn't have armour. I guess NRS thought parry was a good enough substitute, if that was the case, it should go back to being the parry it was, pre patch.

    I wouldn't mind his D1 improved and maybe it's asking for much, but i'd like his bombs to always freeze. In the thick of the action you sometimes dont know what's active or inactive and cannot always capitalise on bombs that don't freeze (i.e., following up with a slide). Maybe if his bombs acted in the way SZ ground freeze works.

    Also, i'm amazed that you cannot U4 into ice blast. If you freeze them, and do another U4 iceblast, they don't re-freeze, as if it were cancelable.

    Another thing that bugs me. You can cancel normal strings into bombs but not ex bombs???

    Personally I think the best buff for him would be to reduce the amount of frames on teleport. Even if it was Cyrax speed, that would change the match up for the morons that do nothing but throw fans, iagb or sais at him all day. Mobility imo is his biggest weakness.
  5. Qwark28

    Qwark28 Winner take all

    PSN:
    BoP_Ruby
    XBL:
    Qwark28
    UsedForGlue

    don't you reckon these would push him into S tier?

    how about finding a way to bring this list to NRS's attention?
  6. Flagg

    Flagg Well-Known Member

    I'm not sure UsedForGlue is asking for ALL these changes, but I don't want to speak for him.

    CSZ just needs one buff. It either needs to be a better teleport or armour. His damage is great and his rush down is good. Air fireballs completely shut his game down, and as a consequence his bad match ups are nearly the worst for any character in the game. I don't want something that propels him to the number one spot, just something to help deal with the mindless air fireball spam that he struggles with. Even if it was armour on ice beam, it would still mean you'd have to spend meter on getting in.

    Personally I think he needs a better teleport, and he would be perfect. Armour is for wussies!
  7. UsedForGlue

    UsedForGlue Patience is the key. Staff Member

    Since then I have modified what I think CSZ should have now, and it would keep him relative to how the game is shaping up.

    You have to rememeber, CSZ was clearly just thrown together at the last minute to fit the story line, so his Design is some what random and doesn't make much sense to how the game is supposed to be played, but he is in my eyes, a ''rushdown'' character with NONE OF THE TOOLS AVAILABLE to rush down as good as other ''rushdown'' characters in the game.

    First thing is:

    Parry - What is the point giving a rushdown character a parry if he cannot do anything after it? Parrys are not defensive moves, they are COUNTERS, look at the other parry's in the game, all of them are counter moves, not defensive moves, Lui Kang, his special parry allows massive knockdown advantage, Cage can full combo from his :ex and Smoke knocks you down right infront of him with advantage, where CSZ knocks you away from him with no real advantage.

    The parry should allow for great advantage, and if not a knockdown, then a safe jump. 8% or whatever minimal damage it with no advantage is no incentive to use it, I try not to use it unless its :ex parry, which is actually one of the best moves in the game, simply because of what it grants for the risk taken.

    Ice Ball - Shit recovery, Shit Start up, while Human Sub Zero, who can hide behind a clone has a much faster start up and reovery on his Ice Ball...In theory, it makes no sense for them to be this way around, when CSZ can't get in (Because of a lack of armour) he can't stay out and trade, or else he will lost out almost all of the time. Most character's that have great projectile games can't complain about a lack of armour. But CSZ he has neither.

    Instead of writing this out, I will post videos in about 20 mins as to why.

  8. Qwark28

    Qwark28 Winner take all

    PSN:
    BoP_Ruby
    XBL:
    Qwark28
    NRS said he wasn't give cyrax's tele because it's "the price of divekicks"

    UsedForGlue

    what if his iceball had same startup and recov as subzero and his bombs were just like cyrax's but freezing instead of juggling,of course they wouldn't freeze with an iceball on screen and he had much better pokes.

    also,how about the counter freezes the opponent but they can still block high low and it's basically a frame advantage from a parry without any damage done,allowing blockstring pressure to begin?
  9. UsedForGlue

    UsedForGlue Patience is the key. Staff Member

    CSZ has no armoured moves, a rubbish parry, shitty bombs, crap ice ball, non exsistant D1 and the worst D4 in the game because he has a ''great'' dive kick (That is fully punishable on block).

    Yet Sonya, has Armoured cartwheels, MS into F1 with +1 advantage and multiple options, great projectile, ridiculous d4 (into MS) 7 frame jab and uppercut, and her dive kick can fully combo, but paulo said nothing about ''the price of dive kicks''...
    Qwark28, i2 Gaug3 and GuamoKun like this.
  10. Qwark28

    Qwark28 Winner take all

    PSN:
    BoP_Ruby
    XBL:
    Qwark28
    No man,i swear i remember those exact words from someone who said he questioned him about the teleport.

    since you said that he was a last minute addition it's very likely they didn't want him to be a blue crappier cyrax and just nerfed him more and gave him divekicks to differentiate him from the others.

    what do you think about my suggestions?
  11. GuamoKun

    GuamoKun There's A Light That Never Goes Out Staff Member

    This is kind of a bit of useless trivia but CSZ's d4 makes Jax's Ground Pound and Kung Lao's EX Teleport attacks whiff. It would be a much more amazing tool if it had better recovery (seriously, 0 ON HIT?).

    I've put in so much blood sweat and tears into this odd character that I just can't quit him now. I'll probably never get far with him but I actually like playing as him even though he has obvious design flaws.
  12. Qwark28

    Qwark28 Winner take all

    PSN:
    BoP_Ruby
    XBL:
    Qwark28
    who cares,you're having fun and enjoying yourself.
    GuamoKun likes this.
  13. GuamoKun

    GuamoKun There's A Light That Never Goes Out Staff Member

    I care, I want to win...which is why I tend to get really salty at myself. I won't blame CSZ for losing me a game but rather myself. An expert with a pebble is better than a rookie with a shotgun?

    Either way, it would be so much easier for me to do stuff if my character was buffed rather than the other characters be nerfed.
  14. Qwark28

    Qwark28 Winner take all

    PSN:
    BoP_Ruby
    XBL:
    Qwark28
    Think of it this way,the better tools you have,the less you gotta outplay your opponent.

    a character with so many flaws has to outplay their opponent very badly and that's a rare thing to happen.

    you and UsedForGlue and Pig Of The Hut and every other loyal CSZ have a place in my heart for character loyalty even in shit tiersness and any victories you guys achieve vs tough comp is worth more than 10 matches of jax vs kabal or any other shit.

    ain't a master with a pebble and a rookie with a shotgun,it's a master of a pebble with arms cut off and a rookie with a shotgun with explosive rounds.
    GuamoKun likes this.
  15. GuamoKun

    GuamoKun There's A Light That Never Goes Out Staff Member

    CALL THE COPS IDGAF. lolol CSZ isn't as bad as people make him out to be, its just that his bad matchups are the reaaaaally popular characters in tournament play.

    However, UsedForGlue did make some good thoughts on what to be changed. Having armor on EX Divekick would make some matchups a lot more manageable but having armor on EX Freeze or at least letting the beam travel full screen after getting hit instead of it disappearing would make a lot of more matchups easier except against regular Sub.
  16. Squeaker101

    Squeaker101 As I live, ALL will die

    I think he should have a chance against Liu. Seems to easy for Liu on paper. These would probably do it, though why no armor on EX Slide?
  17. Qwark28

    Qwark28 Winner take all

    PSN:
    BoP_Ruby
    XBL:
    Qwark28
    That's what i'm saying,not that he's trash (just a bit maybe.) but that his bad mu's are most of the regular hot tournament winning characters.

    it would make a huge difference if someone had crappy tools yet the standard "playing to win" mindset led people to using jade,baraka,noob,scorp,etc.

    so not only do you have bad mu's and crappy tools,you also have most of the bad mu's in every single tournament,while a kabal has to face a jax or two,you gotta face a tournament's worth of matchups,almost
  18. Qwark28

    Qwark28 Winner take all

    PSN:
    BoP_Ruby
    XBL:
    Qwark28
    know what would be hilarious?armour on ex parry.
  19. Squeaker101

    Squeaker101 As I live, ALL will die

    LOL! It'd be like LK's Parry on wake-up. (wake-up frames beat out Parry frames, you both just end up standing there...Liu can be punished if your fast enough)
  20. UsedForGlue

    UsedForGlue Patience is the key. Staff Member


    :ex Slide having armour would mean nothing.

    Human Sub Zero got the armour on his slide so that he could get our of pressure and put a clone on the screen, not so that he could blow throw attacks as an offence, as the :ex slide knocks you away and allows the opponent to roll, CSZ's :ex slide does the exact same thing, so it having armour would mean absolutely nothing.

    He would need no armour moves, he would just need a good teleport, like sub zeros from MKvsDC, the animation for it is already in the game as his Tag swap.

    He is a rushdown character, his parry should grant advantage or safe jump, his jab should be below 8 frames, and his pokes should be better, aswell as a throw landing close.

    His :x should have been the exact same as human sub zeros, with the shoulder animation.

    His Ice ball should have better recovery and start up, along with the bombs and their blast radius, the bombs that don't freeze should allow for the ''feet freeze'' animation of human subzero's ground freeze move, but allow only a block-able attack afterwards.

    Bombs should be allowed to be deployed after combos even after freezing with ice ball, same scenario as cyrax and his nets with bomb ended combos.

    :ex dive kick should grant more advantage on hit as it is fully punishable on block.

    His B22 should combo slide and :ex ice beam on hit, also his B24 shoull combo :x midscreen and combo short dive kicks on block and hit, nothing major, just very very do-able simple fixes.
  21. Flagg

    Flagg Well-Known Member

    I think its crazy only a few strings combo into slide or ice ball, 21, 11 and f1
  22. SnoopyClownGang

    SnoopyClownGang #kneelbeforeme

    dive kick should be air dash cancelable
    UsedForGlue likes this.
  23. UsedForGlue

    UsedForGlue Patience is the key. Staff Member

    I like it!

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