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"Final" UMK3 Tier List before UMK3:TE?

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
I've wanted to discuss the tier list for vanilla UMK3 one more time before UMK3:TE comes out. I don't think TE is necessarily going to kill off Vanilla UMK3, because not everyone is going to be able to play on MAME or play it at tournaments. But for me, I will very rarely play anymore so wanted to discuss the tier list one last time before UMK3:TE is publicly released.

There's been a lot of tier list discussion over the years, and a lot of different lists. Here's the original one from UMK.com:

1.) Kabal
2.) Human Smoke
3.) Kung Lao
4.) Kano
5.) Reptile
6.) Ermac
7.) Nightwolf
8.) Robot Smoke
9.) Sindel
10.) Jax
11.) Sonya
12.) Kitana
13.) Stryker
14.) Scorpion
15.) Unmasked Sub-Zero
16.) Jade
17.) Liu Kang
18.) Sektor
19.) Classic Sub-Zero
20.) Cyrax
21.) Shang Tsung
22.) Mileena
23.) Sheeva

@R.E.O. realized that this list was somewhat outdated, and a new list was in order since Glitch Jabs became such a prominent part of high level UMK3. Here's the thread and list: http://testyourmight.com/threads/new-umk3-tier-list-update-for-2012.24719/

1.) Kabal
2.) Human Smoke
3.) Kung Lao
4.) Kitana
5.) Reptile
6.) Ermac
7.) Nightwolf
8.) Robot Smoke
9.) Kano
10.) Sindel
11.) Jax
12.) Sonya
13.) Stryker
14.) Scorpion
15.) Unmasked Sub-Zero
16.) Jade
17.) Liu Kang
18.) Sektor
19.) Classic Sub-Zero
20.) Cyrax
21.) Shang Tsung
22.) Mileena
23.) Sheeva

Now, on his, he only moved Kitana and Kano, and I think his current list may be different, just wanted to post these two for reference.

Now I want to post my tier list: *Keep in mind, this is based on UMK3 at the highest levels and taking Glitch Jabs into full account.*

God Tier (S):
1.) Kabal
2.) Human Smoke

Top Tier (A+):
3.) Ermac
4.) Kitana
5.) Nightwolf
6.) Robot Smoke

High Tier (A):
7.) Kung Lao
8.) Jax
9.) Sonya
10.) Reptile

Mid Tier (B):
11.) Kano
12.) Sindel
13.) Unmasked Sub-Zero
14.) Scorpion
15.) Mileena
16.) Stryker
17.) Jade
18.) Sheeva

Bottom Tier (C):
19.) Sektor
20.) Liu Kang
21.) Cyrax
22.) Classic Sub-Zero
23.) Shang Tsung

I separated the tier list into 5 parts, I feel each group can compete with each other very well. So even though Shang is #23, he is arguably just as good as #19 Sektor, or at least they can compete with one another. I also believe most characters can compete with each other regardless, with only 2 characters really being far and away from the rest of the cast.

I moved Kitana and Nightwolf in the top 5. I firmly believe they are undoubtedly Top Tier. I've played some of the best Kitana's and Nightwolf's and these two characters are beasts in the current meta of UMK3. Kitana's instant air fan is comparable to Guile's sonic boom in Street Fighter. You can throw it out, recover instantly when you land, then rush down behind it. This prevents your opponent from easily stopping your rushdown. More importantly, her instant air fan (iAF) is one of the best tools against Glitch Jabs in the game. When Kitana throws an iAF against a Glitch Jabbing opponent, it forces the opponent into block stun, then she's free to rush down. Her pressure game is among the best, and the fact that most of the time her iAF gives her free pressure even against GJ's, it single handedly elevates her in the tier list in a post Glitch Jabbing world. If after she threw her iAF, it was more like Kang's iAFB, then she would definitely deserve her previous spot on the tier list. But that's not the case, she can recover nearly instantly and rush you down, forcing you to do something or just block and get pressured.

Nightwolf also has a nasty rushdown and great mix-ups. His ability to set-up multiple ambiguous throw opportunities makes him annoying to deal with and really makes him such a threat. An ambiguous throw set-up is when you land near the opponent after a knock down, and you have to guess which side to hold back in order to avoid being thrown. The way UMK3 is, you land near a fallen opponent and it's hard to tell which side either player is on until you've gotten up completely. His shoulder charge can punish so many things it's ridiculous. From whiff punishing sweeps and other moves, to block punishing a lot of moves on recovery, it's just a really good special move.

Sheeva's at the bottom of Mid Tier. I personally think she can compete with any character in the game aside from God Tier, but only in the right hands. She has a lot of weaknesses, so she can't move too far up the tier list.

Kung Lao's still a decent character in a world full of Glitch Jabbers, but he's no longer top 3 imo. He gets pushed back to #7, still in the top 10 and still Top Tier, but just not as good as the 6 in front of him. He gets punished for nearly everything he does, and there's not too much to fear other than yourself. If you make a mistake, then you can lose against Kung Lao. The problem is, you don't ever really have to make a mistake, as long as you understand the match-up and you're using Glitch Jabs, you can control the match the entire way. Keep in mind, #7 is still a solid spot on the tier list. Kung Lao is in no way a free win or chop liver, he's still strong and deadly, just not as much as he once was, imo.

Reptile moves back to #10 instead of #5. This is a good fit for him I believe. Reptile has quite a few bad match-ups, which weighs him down. His zoning isn't as powerful these days, but still one of the best zoners in the game if not THE best. But it's still too easy to get in on him with GJ's and KJ's. He can do damage and has versatility, but I just don't think he can be a top 5 character in the current meta. Sure, there's certain players who do amazing things with him, but when they face certain match-ups, from character match-ups to player, they never are able to dominate the match, and it seems to be an uphill battle from the beginning of the match.

The other changes aren't too drastic, but I can discuss them too if I need to.

What is everyone's thoughts on my tier list, and the current state of the game and your opinions of the tier list?

@tehdrewsus @mortal_jason @Shock @9.95 @dubson @ded @Konqrr @Mgo @mkholic @umk_p1 @nwo @ReallyMontana @Drakonian @necoarc12 @Dark_Rob @NoDoubt
 

Mikemetroid

Who hired this guy, WTF?
I don't have as much experience as you guys do with a game thats as old as I am. But from playing these past few years this looks pretty solid and makes sense.
 

REO

Undead
Really good list.

Gonna post this small summary on Kitana since not many players seem to understand why she is so ridiculous in UMK:3:

Kitana is top five, no question. She has the longest range on jabs and extreme priority on her throw. This makes her one of the best glitch jabbers (probably 2nd to Kabal), and she is incredibly difficult to stop once she gets going. She can even out glitch jab Kabal in close quarters because her range is slightly longer than Kabal's jabs. Kitana also has the best projectile in the game (instant air fan). It can be done almost instantly at any time (the Kitana player can make it very ambiguous to when they use air fans), gives her a safe jump into more pressure on hit vs a grounded opponent, leads to 50%+ air punishes, is around +20 on block and shuts down glitch jabbing up close. It also beefs up her lockdown game with the use off deep jump kicks into air fans. In the corner, if you get hit by a random fan it's essentially game over as she can convert into the corner jab infinite very easily.

Kitana is definitely one of the characters that benefits with glitch jabs more so than almost anybody else. She is top tier when you master glitch jabbing and know how to exploit and abuse it.
 

REO

Undead
Oh, and to add on to Kitana, she is one of the very few characters who does not have a losing MU that is 3-7 or worse. The reason she has the edge on NW or Kung Lao overall tier placement (as an example) is because she loses to Kabal 4-6, where as NW and Kung Lao get wrecked by Kabal 3-7. She is more viable at the highest level which is another key reason for her being top five.

Has there been a game where sheeva wasn't shit?
MKT. Sheeva is really good in that.
 
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mortal_jason

Kitana's Bodyguard
How did glitch jabs only recently become known?
Game's been out since 1996.
And it seems that there has been an online MK community for a long long time.
I'm guessing people knew of golden punches for a while, but then figured out run jabs within the last 5 years?

Most of my favorite characters are shit tier, sadly.
Interesting that you didn't place Sheeva at #23.
I do win with her alot, maybe she's not bottom of the barrel!
Why did they make her Ground Pound so bad though :( (Answer: because Jax's was so broken in MK2)

Kitana's my favorite/best- here I thought it was just coz I was good with the IAFs.

Well you guys definitely know more about this game than I do, but my UMK3 tier looks like this:

GOD TIER-

1. Kabal
2. Human Smoke

TOP TIER-

3. Kung Lao
4. Ermac
5. Robo Smoke
6. Nightwolf
7. Reptile
8. Kano

MID TIER-

9. Kitana
10. Jax
11. Sonya
12. Sindel
13. Stryker

LOW TIER-

14. Scorpion
15. Unmasked Sub-Zero
16. Jade
17. Sektor

BOTTOM TIER-

18. Liu Kang
19. Classic Sub-Zero
20. Cyrax
21. Shang Tsung
22. Mileena
23. Sheeva

It seems wrong to put Kano at #8.
The guy has so many weapons it's disgusting.
But Reptile has the Forceball infinites, Nightwolf's rushdown is crazy good, etc etc.
 

mortal_jason

Kitana's Bodyguard
Oh, and to add on to Kitana, she is one of the very few characters who does not have a losing MU that is 3-7 or worse. The reason she has the edge on NW or Kung Lao overall tier placement (as an example) is because she loses to Kabal 4-6, where as NW and Kung Lao get wrecked by Kabal 3-7. She is more viable at the highest level which is another key reason for her being top five.



MKT. Sheeva is really good in that.
How is she better in MK Trilogy?
I just played it the other night on N64... she's the same character as in UMK3, no?
 

ded

Elder God
Define highest level? From what I have seen, the highest level from you guys is karajabing to death, then Sheeva at mid-tier has absolutely no sense, as she cannot do anything - literally.

Also, why glitchjabs make you change the tier list so drastically is beyond me. Don't forget that there those little things called punishers, which counter blocked hk,lk,sweep, unfinished combos (sometimes even interrupts blocked combos), even uppercuts and otg JPs, which i have not seen anyone using.

A good teleport ninja pressure is pain in the ass to catch, as he can karajabs, teleport, fireball etc completely safely.

Gjabs also cannot save you from rsmoke/reptile invis strats. nightwolf pressure, kano's sweep and etc.

Putting Reptile and Lao somewhere in the tier list because of their infs only talks about the lacking of knowledge for these characters. I've said that many times:
- Reptile rjab into invis! - and now you control the round
- Lao - unstoppable mobile character using otg JPs and div kicks.
 

nwo

Noob
Oh, and to add on to Kitana, she is one of the very few characters who does not have a losing MU that is 3-7 or worse. The reason she has the edge on NW or Kung Lao overall tier placement (as an example) is because she loses to Kabal 4-6, where as NW and Kung Lao get wrecked by Kabal 3-7. She is more viable at the highest level which is another key reason for her being top five.



MKT. Sheeva is really good in that.
I have Kung Lao at 6-4 vs Kabal (Kabal winning), 5-5 h.Smoke, 5-5 Ermac maybe even beating Ermac 6-4 (since all it takes is 1 blocked teleport to infinite on teleporting male ninjas) and Lao can even spin their teleports without blocking a lot of times. He doesn't get wrecked by Kabal offline since 1 blocked spin = infinite, plus he can teleport to free auto combo when Kabal starts spamming IAF's. Lao also has a longer range sweep and larger auto combo. Lao's spin has priority on Kabal's spin in close to medium range. The Kitana match-up might be 5-5, possibly 6-4 for Lao since he can spin her sweeps often times. NW vs Kung Lao is probably 5-5 if you realize NW is fairly powerless if you keep your distance and pick and choose when to go inside.
 
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Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Also, why glitchjabs make you change the tier list so drastically is beyond me. Don't forget that there those little things called punishers, which counter blocked hk,lk,sweep, unfinished combos (sometimes even interrupts blocked combos), even uppercuts and otg JPs, which i have not seen anyone using.
Because they affect the game drastically. And several characters either go down or up when Glitch Jabs are taken into account. For instance, Kitana goes way up for all the reasons already mentioned, and characters like Kano, Reptile, and Kung Lao go down because of them.

Gjabs also cannot save you from rsmoke/reptile invis strats. nightwolf pressure, kano's sweep and etc.
Invisibility is one of the hardest things to beat in UMK3. I've continually said this and will keep saying it, and I'm glad it has been altered in UMK3:TE. That said, invis strats aren't as deadly when there's Glitch Jabs. R.Smoke can utilize his invisibility much better imo, which is one of the main reasons he's higher than Reptile on my list.

Putting Reptile and Lao somewhere in the tier list because of their infs only talks about the lacking of knowledge for these characters. I've said that many times:
- Reptile rjab into invis! - and now you control the round
- Lao - unstoppable mobile character using otg JPs and div kicks.
I agree, which is what I've been saying for years now. Neither Reptile or Kung Lao's infinite is what makes them good, it just makes them better. For instance, Kung Lao's infinite has even been nerfed in UMK3:TE, and I believe he's one of the best characters in the game. His infinite never was what made him deadly, it's the threat of the infinite that makes you play against him differently, however. With Glitch Jabs, however, Kung Lao isn't as deadly.


I have Kung Lao at 6-4 vs Kabal (Kabal winning), 5-5 h.Smoke, 5-5 Ermac maybe even beating Ermac 6-4 (since all it takes is 1 blocked teleport to infinite on teleporting male ninjas) and Lao can even spin their teleports without blocking a lot of times. He doesn't get wrecked by Kabal offline since 1 blocked spin = infinite, plus he can teleport to free auto combo when Kabal starts spamming IAF's. Lao also has a longer range sweep and larger auto combo. Lao's spin has priority on Kabal's spin in close to medium range. The Kitana match-up might be 5-5, possibly 6-4 for Lao since he can spin her sweeps often times. NW vs Kung Lao is probably 5-5 if you realize NW is fairly powerless if you keep your distance and pick and choose when to go inside.
In the Kabal/Kung Lao match-up, at the absolute best, it's 7-3 in favor of Kabal. There's nothing Kung Lao can really do. One of Kungs best features is his mobility and the fact that he can get in when he wants. It's really hard to get in on Kabal with Kung Lao, and when he does, Kabal has the advantage up close anyway. There's no reason you should ever spin unsafely in this match-up as Kabal, there's no need to. So "1 blocked spin = infinite" is irrelevant. Why would you do an unsafe spin when it could lead to your death anyway?
 

ded

Elder God
Because they affect the game drastically. And several characters either go down or up when Glitch Jabs are taken into account. For instance, Kitana goes way up for all the reasons already mentioned, and characters like Kano, Reptile, and Kung Lao go down because of them.

Invisibility is one of the hardest things to beat in UMK3. I've continually said this and will keep saying it, and I'm glad it has been altered in UMK3:TE. That said, invis strats aren't as deadly when there's Glitch Jabs. R.Smoke can utilize his invisibility much better imo, which is one of the main reasons he's higher than Reptile on my list.

I agree, which is what I've been saying for years now. Neither Reptile or Kung Lao's infinite is what makes them good, it just makes them better. For instance, Kung Lao's infinite has even been nerfed in UMK3:TE, and I believe he's one of the best characters in the game. His infinite never was what made him deadly, it's the threat of the infinite that makes you play against him differently, however. With Glitch Jabs, however, Kung Lao isn't as deadly.
@Juggs, I'm not taking UMK3TE into discussion, as I have not even heard of this until couple of days nor do I plan to play that. I had these debates over the years many times already, but gjabs do not affect at all to reptile, kung lao and kano. Lao, as mentioned, is a mobile character, his game can be mixed with ground and air strats. It literally looks like a chaos character doing random stuff and all that Kitana (for example can do) is just sit there and trying to block something, but she cannot punish anything, unless stupid high div kicks or nonsense spin. Reptile's only difficult is against male ninjas teleport punch and nightwolf. A high level reptile never jumps -> thus means he is on the ground where all these gjabs and karajabs strats you are using take place, and he has no problems interrupting that. As for Kano...good jab pressure, sweep, air throw, knife uppercut and vroll that punish blocked hk,lk,sweeps, uppercuts + relauncher and otg jks is absolutely beast.

I have played against many gjab and karajab players and counting on this tactics only takes you nowhere.

I'd be happy if those people, could post something: @HrZ @AC1984 , Rinn, @Comi, Stewart Butler
 

umk_p1

Noob
Really good list.

Gonna post this small summary on Kitana since not many players seem to understand why she is so ridiculous in UMK:3:

Kitana is top five, no question. She has the longest range on jabs and extreme priority on her throw. This makes her one of the best glitch jabbers (probably 2nd to Kabal), and she is incredibly difficult to stop once she gets going. She can even out glitch jab Kabal in close quarters because her range is slightly longer than Kabal's jabs. Kitana also has the best projectile in the game (instant air fan). It can be done almost instantly at any time (the Kitana player can make it very ambiguous to when they use air fans), gives her a safe jump into more pressure on hit vs a grounded opponent, leads to 50%+ air punishes, is around +20 on block and shuts down glitch jabbing up close. It also beefs up her lockdown game with the use off deep jump kicks into air fans. In the corner, if you get hit by a random fan it's essentially game over as she can convert into the corner jab infinite very easily.

Kitana is definitely one of the characters that benefits with glitch jabs more so than almost anybody else. She is top tier when you master glitch jabbing and know how to exploit and abuse it.
i have to disagree on 2 things.
1) Kabal is #1, he has the longest jab, then come female and male ninjas, they are equal in jab reach they are number 2. Lao is 3rd. Kano 4th. Jax 5th. Kang/sindel 6th etc, pretty easy to test, don't know why so many ppl are making mistakes on that. And btw this is all about reach, not about height, where female ninjas seem pretty good too.
2) NW never gets "wrecked" by kabal, we even use NW as counterpick against kabal and it works most of the time, but still MU is about 5.5-4.5 for kabal.
Even kabal's instatn AF's can't hit nw if NW runs or jabs, so there is no problem for nw to get his close range combat priority in this mu.
 

umk_p1

Noob
i've been strugglin' with lao against kabal, as i said i made an additional button for left pinky on "hitbox" to hold run button to avoid accident hatthrow, that helped a lot, considering lao's jab reach is #3 (well, kabal's #1 lol) and height is good too (he can chip blocking stryker) . Mb 6-4... maybe
p.s. Rinn is beast, last time i saw him no one could do anything to him
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
How did glitch jabs only recently become known?
Game's been out since 1996.
And it seems that there has been an online MK community for a long long time.
I'm guessing people knew of golden punches for a while, but then figured out run jabs within the last 5 years?
I'm not sure how long they have been known. I believe @Shock has said they were known for awhile, but just no one ever really used them. With UMK3 coming to XBL in 2006, once Glitch Jabs were found out by these new online players, most of us were against the GJ's at first and they were thought of as "scrubby" and the consensus was they wouldn't work as well offline. Eventually, the community realized how dominating they were to the meta, and it fractured the community and it made a lot of players flat out quit the game. I'm one of the ones who kept playing for awhile, and figured they weren't as game breaking as I originally thought, but still the dominant tactic.
 

dubson

Noob
Kabal, H Smoke, Reptile, Kung Lao, Ermac

All are higher than Kitana no question. She is Not Top 5, no question.

Probably Nightwolf too.

For every rare Kitana that plays as perfect as it takes to make you think she is Top 5, I want to introduce you to some Reptiles…. Kung Lao's…. If your going to assume Kitana played at the highest possible level is Top 5, you have to do the same for Rep, Kung and Ermac and they are absolutely higher than her. Plus, the amount of work it takes with her. Human or Not.
 

dubson

Noob
I will post my current tier list when I have more time, but all I can say is that people heavily underestimate Sindel, Stryker and Jax… I fight a player online who can do Sindel's infinite consistently with ease (never fought anyone on XBL, mame, arcade who could, PSN has some really really great players people don't know about). Only problem is IDK if he is legit or not in doing it. The guy is a MvC player, and does love combos. But I can't place her accordingly unless I know if this guy is legit in doing her infinite, lol. He could be using programmed buttons, auto fire type shit, or whatnot, and that will not count...
 
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RelentlessOhio

Divekick x 1000
I will post my current tier list when I have more time, but all I can say is that people heavily underestimate Sindel, Stryker and Jax… I'm fighting players online who can do Sindel's infinite consistently with ease, only problem is IDK if he is legit or not in doing it. The guy is a MvC player, and does love combos. But I can't place her accordingly unless I know if this guy is legit in doing her infinite, lol. He could be using programmed buttons, auto fire type shit, or whatnot, and that will not count...
That's because everyone still has a MK9 mindset. Even though Jax is decent in MK9. Sindel and Stryker owned in UMK3 and Trilogy.
 
Kabal, H Smoke, Reptile, Kung Lao, Ermac

All are higher than Kitana no question. She is Not Top 5, no question.

Probably Nightwolf too.

For every rare Kitana that plays as perfect as it takes to make you think she is Top 5, I want to introduce you to some Reptiles…. Kung Lao's…. If your going to assume Kitana played at the highest possible level is Top 5, you have to do the same for Rep, Kung and Ermac and they are absolutely higher than her. Plus, the amount of work it takes with her. Human or Not.
I would put Kung above Kitana as well. One hit you're dead means something in this game. Scout/bait a kabal spin? Dead. Scout a ninja teleport? Dead. Not to mention ridiculous damage on his 7 hitter with jump starter, and ability to "reverse the field" with his teleport, and rapid transport with his dive kick, in the right hands.

And with projectile immunity, and return boomerang, and a 4 hit knockdown into nearly unblockable sweep, no way Jade is lower than Mileena.

My top 5 are
kabal
H smoke
Kung Lao
Ermac
Kano - probably the MOST underrated fighter in the game.
 

dubson

Noob
I would put Kung above Kitana as well. One hit you're dead means something in this game. Scout/bait a kabal spin? Dead. Scout a ninja teleport? Dead. Not to mention ridiculous damage on his 7 hitter with jump starter, and ability to "reverse the field" with his teleport, and rapid transport with his dive kick, in the right hands.

And with projectile immunity, and return boomerang, and a 4 hit knockdown into nearly unblockable sweep, no way Jade is lower than Mileena.

My top 5 are
kabal
H smoke
Kung Lao
Ermac
Kano - probably the MOST underrated fighter in the game.
Mileena is amongst, if not the worst character in the game. Agreed, yes, there is no way she is higher than Jade.

I have played some nasty Mileenas, from South America (they love Mileena). I can't place her higher than Jade.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Nike and Kit and Macro definitely close the top 5 tier list

Nike not only has an insane rushdown, his cl.HK can otg characters with wheird hitboxes, has free shoulder charge hit after a throw, and has one of the best Anti-Airs in the entire game.

This character is just insane, in Angola we call him asshole because he is pretty damn solid, even against Kabal players.
 
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AC1984

Kaballin!
Haven't played the game in a very long time but I totally disagree about Kano and Kung Lao being put behind certain characters.....especially Kitana.

I've played the game in a scene(USA) where kara jabs are the predominant startegy and a scene(Bulgaria ded_ and HRZ) where punishers, perfect spacing,max damage combos,zoning and kara jabs are the predominant strategy.
The second one is devastating...

It's pointless to even compare at this point...Kano has an answer for almost any sistuation while Kitana doesnt.
The fact that there isn't that many people utilizing Kano doesn't make Kitana better at all...The same goes for Kung Lao.

The old tier list is still accurate imo
 
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