General/Other - Sub-Zero Cyromancer and Unbreakable hopes.

[ciaran carrick]

U wot m8

He means F421>1 I believe

 

[Braindead]

He means F421>1 I believe

U wot m8

 

[Youphemism]

He means F421>1 I believe

Oh my god... he meant F421+3 lol

 

[ciaran carrick]

Oh my god... he meant F421+3 lol

oh F42,1+3 ffs

 

[UsedForGlue]

Block infinite much? Lol

Actually yea, well spotted.

The hammer being 0 on block would be better lol.

 

[UsedForGlue]

why does everyone keep leaving out b33~freeze as universal combo against the cast?

that alone would make a difference for the other variations that rely on meter already.

The other stuff is just gravy.

I think exParry should freeze all attacks period (not xray).

I think parry should recover instantly on a projectile nullification.

Cryomancer needs frame overhauls. the ender daggers should be his nutpunch.
He needs his 2,2 string from MK9 to be brought back in this variation in all its glory.

I like the idea that the parry recovers right away once used on a projectile.

 

[UsedForGlue]

I can't stress it enough but I rrreeaallyy want unbreakable to parry interactables and jump ins. Also if the shield parrys a projectile, ice aura should automatically activate. Lastly a little less recovery on shield and were good. He already scales so much.

If you could parry jump ins, you might as well change Unbreakable to Unbeatable.

 

[UsedForGlue]

thats stunted logic



Can't really say whether or not the changes are overkill, you're correct nobody uses the variations enough

MB hammer being a true block string seems a tad much, that and the faster D2 in cryo, 9-10 with that range seems immense.

The changes on some of the strings like 112 seems reasonable.

The regular hammer is armour-able on block from a F4, and some characters can punish the hammer on block afterwards, something needs to give with that move. You can also punish it from any other string he has before it even lands, without meter.

Having one string that is safe to use with the hammer isn't much to ask, considering you can't hit confirm a F4 on block, you can only punish, or primitively spot a punish, and that still isn't a hit confirm, its just a punish.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Because the game is a month old and only 2 subzeros capable of competing are travelling?

But yeah, let's buff our top 10 char. It's like this forum spews buffs without thinking about the consequences, only having the bare minimum of an idea of what footsies actually are.

If you can't outfootsie people using ice clone, you fucking suck.

This was about non grandmaster. Thanks for never changing.

 

[Qwark28]

This was about non grandmaster. Thanks for never changing.

Then that question was even dumber than I thought.

 

[ciaran carrick]

But yeah, let's buff our top 10 char. It's like this forum spews buffs without thinking about the consequences, only having the bare minimum of an idea of what footsies actually are.

If you can't outfootsie people using ice clone, you fucking suck.

He did note that majority of changes weren't too radical, backed up with some sound logic.

Even asked to correct him..

Don't see the problem with putting up suggestions and asking for input

 

[Lokheit]

at least in GM.

This is why I was waiting for some kind of nerf to GM before bringing up the B33 issue. Because stuff that could help the other 2 would feel like too much if applied to GM.

To be honest it wouldn't be broken:

- He is already doing it against ALL females in the cast and no one is screaming nerf the B33.

- The frame stats indicates that he should connect it on everyone, so it can be said that it's a bug and not working as intended.

- In fact if you whiff the first hit you can still connect it on males so it's reeeeaaaally obvious that something is not working as intended here.

-It's not like the resulting combo is broken, even Cryo can't pass the 30% barrier (28% without JIP) from it and the other variations don't get too much more damage than the 16% 123Slide that is used as meterless low with huge wall carry.

Now that they applied a couple of nerfs to GM, it wouldn't hurt so much to fix something to work like it's supposed to and is already working on 1/4 of the cast without showing signs of being broken.

Cryo would really thank it (and while you said that GM wouldn't have anything to waste meter on, Cryo constantly starves for meter) and GM wouldn't improve that much over his current goto midscreen meterless anyway (and again, no female character player is screaming about B33).

 

[ciaran carrick]

I think parry should recover instantly on a projectile nullification.

Instant recovery is madness, means you could absorb most of the casts projectiles (exceptions would be cyber kano, mileena, kitana) and punish recovery frames of them if you're just outside mid range e.g parry>slide or parry>sprint>sz chain, eliminating the use of projectiles period.

Faster recover with use of meter like EX parry (if thats a thing) would be debatable.

 

[RunwayMafia]

I like the idea that the parry recovers right away once used on a projectile.

I want parry to recover faster once used in general. What is the recovery, btw?

It'd be the perfect variation if this were the case. (In my selfish opinion)

 

[Big Pampering]

That is a lot of changes regardless of how good it makes him it is too much for unbreakable. Imo unbreakable is a very interesting variation and I would like to see buffs if they toned down the damage scaling. Right now it is too much. You have some low damage characters who will never get that lifebar to end. Also the ex iceball already has a use for converting b33.

 

[Big Pampering]

Also lmfao at people thinking reos thread was an actual prediction.

 

[Qwark28]

Instant recovery is madness, means you could absorb most of the casts projectiles (exceptions would be cyber kano, mileena, kitana) and punish recovery frames of them if you're just outside mid range e.g parry>slide or parry>sprint>sz chain, eliminating the use of projectiles period.

Faster recover with use of meter like EX parry (if thats a thing) would be debatable.

UFG wasn't the one who suggested B33 being universal.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Instant recovery is madness, means you could absorb most of the casts projectiles (exceptions would be cyber kano, mileena, kitana) and punish recovery frames of them if you're just outside mid range e.g parry>slide or parry>sprint>sz chain, eliminating the use of projectiles period.

Faster recover with use of meter like EX parry (if thats a thing) would be debatable.

Yet its ok for the clone to basically be doing this ALREADY?

c'mon now.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

This is why I was waiting for some kind of nerf to GM before bringing up the B33 issue. Because stuff that could help the other 2 would feel like too much if applied to GM.

To be honest it wouldn't be broken:

- He is already doing it against ALL females in the cast and no one is screaming nerf the B33.

- The frame stats indicates that he should connect it on everyone, so it can be said that it's a bug and not working as intended.

- In fact if you whiff the first hit you can still connect it on males so it's reeeeaaaally obvious that something is not working as intended here.

-It's not like the resulting combo is broken, even Cryo can't pass the 30% barrier (28% without JIP) from it and the other variations don't get too much more damage than the 16% 123Slide that is used as meterless low with huge wall carry.

Now that they applied a couple of nerfs to GM, it wouldn't hurt so much to fix something to work like it's supposed to and is already working on 1/4 of the cast without showing signs of being broken.

Cryo would really thank it (and while you said that GM wouldn't have anything to waste meter on, Cryo constantly starves for meter) and GM wouldn't improve that much over his current goto midscreen meterless anyway (and again, no female character player is screaming about B33).

don't kill me here... but wouldn't Cryo use b33~exHammer anyway to combo? the b33 thing is mainly for the other 2, who won't break 40% like Cryo does.

Cryo needs the ability to use that sword in more than the capacity of that one string and his d2.
I'm so surprised that the 2,2 (or something like it) isn't back from mk9. He needs a rangy ice sword attack that is shorter range than f4 but lets him poke the bear. then f12 can be used to stay at frame advantage in the way that 21 was used to "stagger" (it was bad tho).

if everyone doesn't agree on the b33 (which is fine), then why isn't ice bomb universal? His unbreakable version could use it in the same manner (he doesn't have an armor launcher in this variation) and when that aura is up... it could essentially give the same "smash" animation as a clone. This would allow him to use the f4~aura frame traps more often and increase his neutral presence, at the risk of losing all the good the aura does for him.

 

[greedface]

Wtf is a "CYRO"mancer? It's CRYO
CRYOMANCER

Is this the new "Lui" Kang?

 

[Lokheit]

don't kill me here... but wouldn't Cryo use b33~exHammer anyway to combo? the b33 thing is mainly for the other 2, who won't break 40% like Cryo does.

Cryo needs the ability to use that sword in more than the capacity of that one string and his d2.
I'm so surprised that the 2,2 (or something like it) isn't back from mk9. He needs a rangy ice sword attack that is shorter range than f4 but lets him poke the bear. then f12 can be used to stay at frame advantage in the way that 21 was used to "stagger" (it was bad tho).

if everyone doesn't agree on the b33 (which is fine), then why isn't ice bomb universal? His unbreakable version could use it in the same manner (he doesn't have an armor launcher in this variation) and when that aura is up... it could essentially give the same "smash" animation as a clone. This would allow him to use the f4~aura frame traps more often and increase his neutral presence, at the risk of losing all the good the aura does for him.

Cryo needs that B33 for a meterless option. Given how poor it is to set up strategies (specially with no meter). If Cryo could use that 28% midscreen combo (without using any EX bar in the process) against anyone, he would be more versatile on what he is supposed to do well (damaging options midscreen where the other variations are supposed to be worse).

Right now if you want to use low hitting combos midscreen, you either use the 16% 123Slide wallcarry combo or F33 covered with an iceball (against non teleporters) to push them. The ability to start something that ends in F421+3 from a low hitting meterless move would improve a lot (at least I have an easier time against females when I'm using Cryomancer).

If you can afford the EX Hammer, yeah, it's a really good option, but Cryo is at the same time the most meter dependant variation, and the worse meter building variation for Sub-Zero, so he can't affor to spend too much of it.

 

[ciaran carrick]

Are you serious? Thats completely different.

How is the clone which has both slow start up/recovery the same at all?

You cant react clone a projectile and punish, if you throw projectile at sz player just hanging behind it the clone thats taking a risk throwing the projectile.

original point, instant recovery is ridiculous for the parry.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Are you serious? Thats completely different.

How is the clone which has both slow start up/recovery the same at all?

You cant react clone a projectile and punish, if you throw projectile at sz player just hanging behind it the clone thats taking a risk throwing the projectile.

original point, instant recovery is ridiculous for the parry.

you can't react to a clone with a projectile and punish him for it.....

clone is better because it hangs around for the less than instant recovery.

It would simply put the parry on the same level of projectile nullifying properties as the clone all the time, where the clone only has it once it is out there. Furthering unbreakables defensive prowess, and allowing him to parry a projectile full screen and pop aura.

 

[UsedForGlue]

I want parry to recover faster once used in general. What is the recovery, btw?

It'd be the perfect variation if this were the case. (In my selfish opinion)

I don't know the recovery off hand, but for instance, Kung Lao can low hat full screen, and run in for a block string by the time you recover on the parried projectile.

 

[UsedForGlue]

The bottom line is this, none of the things that we would like to be changed are game breaking, I would never hope for that.

CYRO:
F4 hammer being a genuine block string, and 0 on block.
111 Cyro being overhead on last hit, combo a regular ice ball, and the last hit has enough hit advantage to RC a new string
F211 being -6, higher pop up.
D2 being 2-4 frame faster
F421+3 having a F4 advantage, with less pushback.

GENERAL:
MB Ice ball having a faster start up
114 being -6/-7
112 having way more pushback

UNBREAKABLE:
Aura being safe or advantage from B12, F42 and 123.
Maybe drop auras throw damage further, from 8% to 5/6%.
Parry on projectiles recovering instantly, or faster.

These are not anything game changing, even one of any of these would be welcome, and in my opinion, it would make the moves work the way there were intended.

I do think B33 Ice ball is a bit much to ask for, as he wouldn't need to spend meter for anything.

If anyone has an issue with these opinions expressed, tag me in a post and I will explain the thoughts behind him, they are not just throw away cries for a stronger character.