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Counterpicking - A good thing to learn and a sign of a Balanced Game.

A recent topic that's come up in discussions over both Final Round XV and now MLG Columbus has been the validity of the strategy of counterpicking. A # of posters have come out against this strategy and have been quite.....well, hateful of it. And it was on full display in Grand Finals of MLG Columbus, as well as multiple other matches within that tournament.

But what these posters do not seem to understand is that the usage of counterpicking strategies is a very healthy and good thing for the game, and is something that every player who wishes to compete in tournaments and win* should either learn or prepare to see.

*If you're one of the many players who don't intend to win at tournies but go for fun, you can totally ignore this strategy. Hell, if you want to be a character loyalist and win, you don't have to counterpick. But you can't complain if someone does it to you.

No Fighting Game in EXISTENCE has a cast in which every character has a 5-5 matchup against everyone else. It doesn't happen. If a game has a character with only 5-5 or better matchups, the game is not balanced and you have a problem character (think Yun in Super Street Fighter 4 AE).*

*Note the converse is NOT True. A "Balanced Fighting Game" often has at least 1 character who has no positive matchups better than 5-5 against the entire cast. But a Balanced Game can't have too many of these characters.

But a balanced game has many characters who have a few 5-5 matchups, a few 6-4 matchups (where they have a clear advantage), and a few 4-6 matchups (where they're at a disadvantage). Heck, some characters will have 7-3 and 3-7 matchups (or even one 2-8 or 8-2 matchup, but that's to be avoided if possible). So there will be in a balanced game matchups where even the best player in the world will be the underdog.

Now Consider This:

Why do we have tournaments in the first place, with large money prize pools? The answer (among other reasons): to crown the BEST Player at Mortal Kombat. That's why we often seed tournaments so that the better players are on different sides of the bracket - we want the best players in the tournament to go the farthest and we don't want a poor player to sneak into top 8 because no good players were in his side of the bracket.

But character matchups pose a problem at crowning the best player in a tournament. Let's say a tournament is character locked and that the best player is playing a character who is a good character, but he runs into 3 matches in a row early against 4-6 (or worse 3-7) matchups. Odds are that player won't make it through the gauntlet. This becomes even more evident when you have 3 out of 5 games per round.

So who makes top 8 in these character locked tournaments? Well the best players who don't, by luck of the draw, run into too many bad matchups. In other words, Top 8 and the overall winner of the tournament is determined in great part BECAUSE OF LUCK.

That's a problem. That's a serious problem. In fact it's probably worse than that, because it means that the best players will eventually switch to characters who have the least "bad" matchups possible so as to reduce the chance of them getting bad character draws. The end result: A Top 8 determined by luck and dominated by a few same characters.

This SUCKS.

The Solution to this is simple: Players are allowed to learn multiple characters to switch between whenever they run into "bad matchups." As a result, no character is off limits to any top player - they can even play characters who are crap as long as they have a second character to switch to when they run into bad matchups. The player who wins the tournament becomes the BEST Player who is both the best at the game and the most prepared for any situation he can come across (a fair situation) rather than the player who luckily avoids all the Johnny Cages in the Bracket.

This is why you see Counterpicking. REO has issues beating CD Jr's Jax with his main Kabal. This is essentially a 4.5-5.5 matchup for REO (maybe worse). If we didn't allow character switching, REO may be screwed. He might win sometimes (the matchup is far from 0-10), but most of the time he's going to lose. Is it possible REO might improve his game to the point where the matchup is 5-5? Maybe....but CD Jr. can improve too, and sometimes a matchup is just a matchup.....you can't get around it when both players know the matchup perfectly - it is what it is. So it's just stupid to say REO (and other players) should be stuck into playing over and over a matchup of characters where, due to no fault of REO's, is simply bad for him.

So REO switches to Johnny Cage, giving him a 6-4 edge over CD Jr. CD Jr. switches to Smoke which gives him a 5-5 matchup against REO's Cage. And Hence we get counterpicking.

This isn't a problem. This is a sign that the best player will win a tournament and won't be stopped by running constantly into another good player with the worst matchup for his character. That's what we want.
 

Reneketon

Buyback, cos I'm mad
The more characters closer to 5-5, the more balanced. I don't agree with that if a character has 8-2 matches in his favor, and 8-2 not in his favor that the game is balanced. It isn't. The idea of a balanced game is to get all the characters as close to 5-5 as possible. The former is more akin to a game like dota 2, ie heroes countering other heroes directly. Fighting games should never have characters that "directly" counter other characters. The idea of a balanced game to me is to give as many characters a chance against the ENTIRE cast, not specific characters. This is so that if you find a character that you enjoy the most, you'll be able to play him/her against any other character and see more variety in match-ups as well as in character variety.

Ofcourse, this isn't possible. No game will be 100% balanced made by human hands. Even the most balanced games, like GG, or VF, have "bad" match-ups. Counter-picking will happen and it's fine really. It just depends on the Degree on which it happens. If a tournament you run into someone who uses a character that "counters" you, then you'll have to either lose your first match, or blind pick. After you lose, you'll then "counter" him, and then he'll just "counter" you right back, thus you'll still have the problem of dealing with bad match-ups, just switching back and forth rather than being locked in for a whole set. Still, I'd rather have a loser switch than having a lock-in, but it'd be far better that players aren't forced to switch because of an 8-2 match-up every time against that one character.

Edit, to be honest though, I have rarely seen anyone counter-pick in VF, because any character in that game can beat anyone, easy. Just a note before some VF guys tries to blow me up. :D
 
The more characters closer to 5-5, the more balanced. I don't agree with that if a character has 8-2 matches in his favor, and 8-2 not in his favor that the game is balanced. It isn't. The idea of a balanced game is to get all the characters as close to 5-5 as possible. The former is more akin to a game like dota 2, ie heroes countering other heroes directly. Fighting games should never have characters that "directly" counter other characters. The idea of a balanced game to me is to give as many characters a chance against the ENTIRE cast, not specific characters. This is so that if you find a character that you enjoy the most, you'll be able to play him/her against any other character and see more variety in match-ups as well as in character variety.

Ofcourse, this isn't possible. No game will be 100% balanced made by human hands. Even the most balanced games, like GG, or VF, have "bad" match-ups. Counter-picking will happen and it's fine really. It just depends on the Degree on which it happens. If a tournament you run into someone who uses a character that "counters" you, then you'll have to either lose your first match, or blind pick. After you lose, you'll then "counter" him, and then he'll just "counter" you right back, thus you'll still have the problem of dealing with bad match-ups, just switching back and forth rather than being locked in for a whole set. Still, I'd rather have a loser switch than having a lock-in, but it'd be far better that players aren't forced to switch because of an 8-2 match-up every time against that one character.
Right, but I don't think there are any 8-2 matchups. Or if there are, they affect only 1 or 2 characters, which is fine in a game with this many characters....it's kind of hard to make a game with 31 characters and not have 1-2 be un-competitively playable.
 

Reneketon

Buyback, cos I'm mad
Right, but I don't think there are any 8-2 matchups. Or if there are, they affect only 1 or 2 characters, which is fine in a game with this many characters....it's kind of hard to make a game with 31 characters and not have 1-2 be un-competitively playable.
That was just a hypothetical, the only match I've heard of being 8-2 in this game is Jax-Cage, but that is what CDjr and tyrant says, not moi.

It is very hard to balance 31 characters, but I was just stating what I fell is a balanced game.

What I want to know is, if a match is like 6-4, why counterpick?
 

xenogorgeous

.... they mostly come at night. Mostly.
I have nothing against counter-picking in MK9 .... this keep the game funny, because it's cool to see what a top player will do against his main "nemesis" .... I mean, this obligates every serious player to study deeper and try to seek for solutions against theorically bad matchups, making high skilled top level players to be "creative" and develop great speed of reaction and reflexes for this game.

Also :

1) This is an incentive to top players, along the time, learn all MK9 roster gameplay, and not stick forever with the same characters;

2) There is no 8-2 in MK9, there are some 7-3 and 6-4, and definitely, more 5-5 matches;

3) Personal level of skill mixed with cunning smart brainy gameplay decisions during the match, sometimes, act much more influence than the matchup itself ..... people should learn to defend properly and counter-attack "on time" .... instead of putting all fault into character's shoulders ..... :confused:
 
That was just a hypothetical, the only match I've heard of being 8-2 in this game is Jax-Cage, but that is was CDjr and tyrant says, not moi.

It is very hard to balance 31 characters, but I was just stating what I fell is a balanced game.

What I want to know is, if a match is like 6-4, why counterpick?
I don't think that's 8-2; people tend to exaggerate how bad matchups are involving their own characters (CD Jr's Jax took a few rounds off cage opponents, for instance). As for why counterpick a 6-4? Because a 6-4 is still hard to win.....and between players of close talent, that small gap in characters is enough to make the better player no longer the favorite. Why should we expect a player to purposely put himself into a strategy that makes him the underdog? (Hence the counterpick).
 

Ermaculate_Slim

We are Many but we didnt make MK11 not one
You know what I've noticed after every tournament people always find new things to bitch about.Now the Hot Topic is Counter picking, really?? People are upset because guys are playing to win?Im all for character loyalty I guess but when somethings not working u have to adjust.So whats next on the Bitch about stupid shit list? Cross over punches?
 

KamikazeJD

Makes women fap
You know what I've noticed after every tournament people always find new things to bitch about.Now the Hot Topic is Counter picking, really?? People are upset because guys are playing to win?Im all for character loyalty I guess but when somethings not working u have to adjust.So whats next on the Bitch about stupid shit list? Cross over punches?
no cross over punches will never be complained about, spam blocking tho.... Thats an overwhelming problem n the community
 

Espio

Kokomo
Johnny cage versus Jax is not 8-2 in Cage's favor, that match up isn't even 8-2 with Cage versus Jade(it's like 4-6 Cage's favor, so I think it's fair and logical to conclude that it's roughly the same if not better for Jax)....with all due respect I think everyone's really caught up with what happened in MLG and I think opinions will moderate after this latest tournament hype settles down...

I really don't even see an 8-2 match ups in this game, the worst is probably 7-3, but I'm beginning to think that match up is more 6-4 range.

Counterpicking is viable and a personal choice, obviously, but I don't think people NEED to counterpick to win, but peopel do because they want the best chance of getting a payout, but counterpicking doesn't guarantee a win, the person you're counterpicking might know the match up better than you, even if it is a bad match up for the character.
 

Reneketon

Buyback, cos I'm mad
I don't think that's 8-2; people tend to exaggerate how bad matchups are involving their own characters (CD Jr's Jax took a few rounds off cage opponents, for instance). As for why counterpick a 6-4? Because a 6-4 is still hard to win.....and between players of close talent, that small gap in characters is enough to make the better player no longer the favorite. Why should we expect a player to purposely put himself into a strategy that makes him the underdog? (Hence the counterpick).
I've seen good players grind out supposedly 6-4 match-ups in other games all the time. It's better to play a character that you are both the most comfortable with and have the most knowledge with than simply to counter pick because a match is slightly not in your favor. Learning you bad match-ups and overcoming them is a sure sign of a good player. Ofcourse, if your match-up is 7-3 or more then I'd easily understand a counterpick but I think just learning the match-up will lead characters to reach a higher level of play and be more interesting, rather than "oh he picked x, now I have to pick y whenever he picks x" and might even lead to the realization that it isn't 6-4 in the first place. It is very hard, I'd argue, impossible to determine if two players are even in skill completely. On paper sure, two players of "even" skill play and the matchup is 6-4, Mr. 6 has a slightly higher chance of winning. However I think that is just looking way to hard into the paper.
 
I've seen good players grind out supposedly 6-4 match-ups in other games all the time. It's better to play a character that you are both the most comfortable with and have the most knowledge with than simply to counter pick because a match is slightly not in your favor. Learning you bad match-ups and overcoming them is a sure sign of a good player. Ofcourse, if your match-up is 7-3 or more then I'd easily understand a counterpick but I think just learning the match-up will lead characters to reach a higher level of play and be more interesting, rather than "oh he picked x, now I have to pick y whenever he picks x" and might even lead to the realization that it isn't 6-4 in the first place. It is very hard, I'd argue, impossible to determine if two players are even in skill completely. On paper sure, two players of "even" skill play and the matchup is 6-4, Mr. 6 has a slightly higher chance of winning. However I think that is just looking way to hard into the paper.
I agree somewhat - it's certainly possible that you can be so much more comfortable with your main that switching to counter is a negative strategy. This was sort of discussed by someone (I think the commentators) when CD Jr. was hovering over Kenshi to counter Cage, but opted against it.

That said, if you're comfortable enough with a second character, even if you sacrifice some skill by switching from a 4-6 character to a 6-4 character, your character's matchup improvement is enough to make up for it. Heck sometimes, even if you're super confident in your main normally, you might be so uncomfortable in some matchups that switching to the counter-pick is better even if you're not as practiced with that character (there's a psychological effect there).
 

Gesture Required Ahead

Get on that hook
TL;DR

There are 7-3's in the game but MK's level of play makes it look like it's a 6-4.

ie. Sonya v Reptile is clearly a 7-3 but THTB will make it look like a 6-4 simply of how good a player he is.
 

Gesture Required Ahead

Get on that hook
TL;DR

There are 7-3's in the game but MK's level of play makes it look like it's a 6-4.

ie. Sonya v Reptile is clearly a 7-3 but THTB will make it look like a 6-4 simply of how good a player he is.
 

Lumpymoomilk

Online Punching Bag
TL;DR

There are 7-3's in the game but MK's level of play makes it look like it's a 6-4.

ie. Sonya v Reptile is clearly a 7-3 but THTB will make it look like a 6-4 simply of how good a player he is.
7-3 in Sonya's favor? Really? I find that one of her most annoying matches. Dash seems to beat everything I do in close quarters with crappy online lag. That could just be an online thing though.
 

Enenra

Go to hell.
TL;DR

There are 7-3's in the game but MK's level of play makes it look like it's a 6-4.

ie. Sonya v Reptile is clearly a 7-3 but THTB will make it look like a 6-4 simply of how good a player he is.
I disagree with that. I disagree with Mileena MU too, they aren't in Reptile's favor, but they really aren't that atrocious.

7-3 in Sonya's favor? Really? I find that one of her most annoying matches. Dash seems to beat everything I do in close quarters with crappy online lag. That could just be an online thing though.
Yea, I don't think it is a 7-3 at all.
 

Reneketon

Buyback, cos I'm mad
I agree somewhat - it's certainly possible that you can be so much more comfortable with your main that switching to counter is a negative strategy. This was sort of discussed by someone (I think the commentators) when CD Jr. was hovering over Kenshi to counter Cage, but opted against it.

That said, if you're comfortable enough with a second character, even if you sacrifice some skill by switching from a 4-6 character to a 6-4 character, your character's matchup improvement is enough to make up for it. Heck sometimes, even if you're super confident in your main normally, you might be so uncomfortable in some matchups that switching to the counter-pick is better even if you're not as practiced with that character (there's a psychological effect there).
If you a player is not confident in a match-up with his main, he can switch. Again, i'm not against having secondary's to deal with bad match-ups, I actually think it is quite smart. However on the flip side, some players are really comfortable with certain match-ups, even not in their favor, that may (and should) stay with their main despite the disadvantage. It all varies from player to player and match-up to match-up. After all, different players have different opinions on match-ups...as shown in this very thread.
 

Gesture Required Ahead

Get on that hook
7-3 in Sonya's favor? Really? I find that one of her most annoying matches. Dash seems to beat everything I do in close quarters with crappy online lag. That could just be an online thing though.
LOLNO.Here, lemme give a quick rundown.

Fullscreen: Reptile gets outzoned
Midscreen: Dive kick and EN Cartwheel beats dash and Forceballs
Up close: IaDK rapes Reptile's slow ass pokes , Dash is the only way out of her pressure and is combo punishable , EN Cartwheel

There's a whole discussion about this on the Reptile forums but that's generally the jist of it.
 

Gesture Required Ahead

Get on that hook
I disagree with that. I disagree with Mileena MU too, they aren't in Reptile's favor, but they really aren't that atrocious.


Yea, I don't think it is a 7-3 at all.
Look at my reply to Lumpy.

And as for the Mileena one.She could Telekick all day and get away with it.Roll beats ALL of Reptile's options and Mileena always has meter while Reppy has none.
 

Lumpymoomilk

Online Punching Bag
LOLNO.Here, lemme give a quick rundown.

Fullscreen: Reptile gets outzoned
Midscreen: Dive kick and EN Cartwheel beats dash and Forceballs
Up close: IaDK rapes Reptile's slow ass pokes , Dash is the only way out of her pressure and is combo punishable , EN Cartwheel

There's a whole discussion about this on the Reptile forums but that's generally the jist of it.
half the time when I cartwheel if it's in close proximity the dash just flies through it, the zoning really only works if they are always trying to fullscreen acid ball, The acid spit can seemingly trade, maybe it's just because I play on reaction instead of anticipation and the input delay is screwing me up. I really need to find some offline people to play with.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Zero, Mileena doesn't beat Reptile bad, at all. It's only slight advantage.

Sonya is tough, but it isn't 7-3. Even Riu48 agreed on that.
 

Gesture Required Ahead

Get on that hook
half the time when I cartwheel if it's in close proximity the dash just flies through it, the zoning really only works if they are always trying to fullscreen acid ball, The acid spit can seemingly trade, maybe it's just because I play on reaction instead of anticipation and the input delay is screwing me up. I really need to find some offline people to play with.
Doesn't Onion Ring go under Spit?I mean, if it goes under IaGB then it should go under Spit too right?
 

Gesture Required Ahead

Get on that hook
Zero, Mileena doesn't beat Reptile bad, at all. It's only slight advantage.

Sonya is tough, but it isn't 7-3. Even Riu48 agreed on that.
Hey you, why are you on the forums already?Aren't you at MLG? lol.

Anyways, then how do you deal with all of the above?I understand telekicks, but the IaS and Roll?