What's new

CHOMP CHOMP HISS! - The Reptile Matchup Thread

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Obviously, this game is definitely about matchups. There's a definite lack of matchup talk for Reptile, so let's get started! :)

Idk about anyone else, but I've found Cyber Sub to definitely be one of Reptile's bad matchups. Being able to reaction divekick OVER Reptile's projectiles sucks immensely, especially since EX divekick is safe and 18% on hit. Luckily, we can punish his regular ones with dash, allowing us to abuse his pretty bad wakeup. Aside from that, I'm drawing blanks. Anyone finding better success?
 

Milk

Snake eyes
I'm just going to use this post as a placeholder for the write ups.

Scorpion: 50:50
(Completed until further notice!)
Alright here we go. We're gonna' start discussing match ups for Reptile, starting with Scorpion and working our way down the line, so, here's Scorpion's start.

Scorpion
I feel personally that Scorpion is an even match up, maybe a bit in our favor, like a 55:45. The tools Scorpion has on us that we actually need to watch out for is Spear, Hellfire, Teleport, and air grab. He has the leg sweep too, but, I don't feel it's very dangerous at all outside of combos, it's incredibly predictable, even with mix ups. If anyone else has input to throw in on it I'm missing, please do so in your post, I'd like to hear how other Reptile's approach him. I'm going to describe them each individually, then describe how I approach the match up. I'm also going to address the tools we have against him.

Tools he has against us:​
Hellfire: I personally feel that Hellfire is one of Scorpion's more dangerous tools against Reptile, as to why I am addressing it first. Hellfire has a weird auto track function that tags us pretty late into an elbow dash. I tried punishing it with double elbow dashes on reaction, but, it tracked me mid way through my first one. A smart Scorpion will try to bait our dashes and shut it down with Hellfire, or, spear. If you're quick enough, I was able to jump and elbow dash as soon as I hit the ground to punish him. His other option with Hellfire is hitting us with it on wake up, since it's unblockable, but, every chance they did this, I was able to punish accordingly, whether it be with acid spit, or dash elbow dash. A dangerous tool we need to watch out for, but, nothing to hinder our ability to fight.

Spear: Spear seems to shut down a lot of opportunities as well, not just for Reptile. The best advice I can give about Spear is, if you see it coming, and you're not already committed to something, just do acid spit. While the spear will still hit you, as will your acid to him, getting you out of the spear's animation, and not getting you comboed. A trade to get out of a full combo is fine by me. The spears juice isn't the damage, it's the stun it gives, so, it's the better option.

Teleport: Teleports can be incredibly hit or miss against Reptile. Scorpions, while not one of the better teleports, it's still good, especially mid combo. If you are dumb with your counter attacks or AA's, he can make his jump ins safe with teleport. A smart Scorpion can really make his teleports tricky, especially if he gets a jump kick on you high enough he gets a free combo off a teleport land b+2 commence combo.

AirGrab: Scorpion has a multitude of options on a jump in, whether it be him or us jumping in. He can commence a combo, and it can wind up being incredibly damaging. Or he can just do a clean air grab, setting up options while you're grounded. While not his most dangerous tool, still gotta' be careful on our jump ins, at all times. If you're going to jump in, try to make sure you have enough meter for a breaker if he starts a full combo.

How I approach the match up​
Right when the match starts, we both are going to want to close distance. Be patient and wait for him to mess up, whether it be throw a spear or teleport, and punish accordingly. On teleport whiff's, you have enough time for them to land to start a full 3 2 1 bnb for full damage, assuming they don't use their breaker. He can keep a decent amount of pressure on you with his normals, but, nothing you cant counter with an elbow dash. Just always keep it in the back of your mind he can cancel most of his normals with teleport, so always be ready to block and punish it, just in case. Be careful with your elbow dashes, in fear of being tagged by a spear, and try to keep some meter, don't waste it on x ray.

Tools we have against him:​
Acid Spit: As I stated earlier, we can use this to trade with spear. Be careful using it to zone, he can easily tag you on a mistake acid spit.

Elbow Dash: Gives us the ability to close distance, tag him on normal string mess ups, ground mix ups, and to get away from a teleport if timed correctly.

Slide: Haven't tested this, but does slide go under spear? I don't think it does. Slide also stuff's Scorpion's wake up leg trip, and slides you out of the way of a wake up teleport.

Forceball: Able to use this to tag him on spears too, while not as viable of an option, since you won't get a combo on them, and you might still be staggered. Haven't done a lot of testing with this yet.

Ex invisibility: Damage boost is nice, and makes him have to think if you're going high or low. Also makes it difficult to judge where you are on the screen, to properly space his teleports. Be careful though, even if Hellfire misses, still gives him an idea of where you are.

Green Hand: Able to tag him out of teleports if timed correctly. I think THTB said the timing somewhere, and if I'm not mistaken, right when the teleport starts, will the green hand auto correct if you input it right as Scorp is leaving the screen? If you do ex and instantly elbow dash whiff out of it, you should be able to land a combo off of it.



So overall, Scorpion has tools to fight against us, but if we play it correctly, it should just come down to pure skill.

50:50

Sub Zero: 45:55
Sub Zero
Now on to Sub Zero. I have limited match up experience with Sub, so some of this will be theorycraft, THTB, if you could help a bit more on this one I'd very much appreciate it, but, I did play against one at the last tourney I went to, and as long as you don't give him a chance to control the level with clones, as in, not letting him get distance, and getting right on his tail, I feel a lot more comfortable about it.

When it comes to Sub, especially since such a offensive and rushdown character such as Reptile, he is going to try as hard as he possibly can to keep that starting match distance between you two. Setting up a grounded ice clone greatly hinders our approach, and makes his zoning a ton more safe, considering we cant rush in. For SF players, it's basically a Guile set up, just safer. If we jump in, he'll AA us, if we rush in, in this case, we get frozen, if we let him zone, it lets him build meter, albeit slower in MK then in SF. Our goal is to close that distance, any way possible. In this particular match up, it wouldn't hurt to build your meter for X Ray, to tag him on baited out ice clones, from what I hear, it goes through ice clones? (I'll test this tomorrow before work.) From what I've noticed, Sub doesn't jump in a whole lot, so we don't really have to using meter to tag him with ex FB and ex green hand, if for whatever reason he does jump in, just use standing 4 (I think it's standing 4, if not, forward 4? The windmill kick thing Reptile does.) and conserve that meter for the ninja x ray.


Tools he has against us:

Ice Clones: The bane of our ground approach whatsoever. This tool, combined with ice balls, makes it fairly difficult for Reptile to get close. Most of the time, a clean freeze allows Sub a full combo, albeit smaller since he only gets one freeze a combo, normal strings aside. You need to do everything in your power to avoid letting him set up these clones, whether it be zoning to get a clone to dissipate, doing significantly less elbow mix ups while he is grounded, being careful on counter attacks while he is sticking you in place with block strings, and being super careful on your jump ins. This tool can easily make or break the match up for us, just like us, once Sub gets rolling, it's difficult to stop the force.

Ice Ball: While not as scary as ice clones, Ice Balls are still a threat in their own, whether it be zoning, in combos, or paired together with an ice clone somewhere on screen. Sub can make each level of the course difficult to get close to him by, setting up an ice clone in the air and zoning with ice balls while grounded makes Sub a tricky character to catch up to. Especially keep an eye out for Ice Beam, since it's full screen, a Sub might bait out an approach with zoned ice balls, throw out an ice beam, and catch you, just keep your eye out. Most the time, like I stated earlier, on a clean freeze, he has enough time to get a full combo off, from most distances of the screen. (Not sure if freeze lasts long enough to get a combo off from full screen?)

Ice Puddle: Considering Reptile has multiple options out of the corner, and this move shines in the corner on resets, not one of Sub's stronger tools, albeit still useful for resets in general. Purposely whiffing a normal string to end the combo in this can end up in another full combo, so just keep an eye on it, and be ready to jump. Generally pretty easy to read and react accordingly though.

Slide: Just the generic slide special. Easy to block on reaction, full combo on block, general same use as the other slides, to tag someone on a low, but, if you know they won't react quick enough, just easier to get them with Ice Puddle. This shouldn't serve a problem whatsoever in this match up.

How I approach the match up:​
First thing is first, I almost always start the match with an elbow dash or a forceball. Pressure is a good start, having something on the screen, or someone advancing towards them just gives them another thing to have to worry about, giving you a bit of more time to react. Once Sub starts trying to get his ice clone silliness going, thats when things have to get significantly more careful. Usually, the second the ice clone goes down, assuming he isn't throwing an ice ball, I do elbow dash again, or ex, just to try to close some more distance, and potentially get a jump in. Assuming you don't have enough time to jump in on him, just be ready to zone if need be, acid spit is an amazing tool. If for whatever reason he starts trying to approach you, the match up should be in your hands, just try to not let you two be too far apart from each other, and if you do get seperated, try to have a forceball going, hard for Sub to punish full screen besides ice ball.

Tools we have against him:
Acid Spit: Our zoning tool against Sub. In this scenario, a trade is less beneficial, but, it should give us enough time to get unfrozen and not get comboed. Not much else to say, don't be too crazy with it, we don't want him freezing us for whatever reason.

Elbow Dash: Gives us the ability to close distance, tag him on normal string mess ups, and ground mix ups, although we have to be significantly more careful with them, in fear of him wake up ice cloning.

Slide: Does Slide go under ice ball? I'm sure sweep does, which isn't a bad option at close range, but Sub should only be doing Ice Balls at close range in combos. Does Slide beat out puddle, or do we still slip?

Forceball: Gives us a bit of screen control back, since if he keeps zoning he'll get tagged by a forceball, and with elbow dashes we should be able to advance and at least get a bit of damage in.

Ex invisibility: \ While not as useful as it would be in other match ups, still not a terrible option. In this I feel we should save our meter for x ray more than anything.

Green Hand: Allows you to get him away from you on a blocked 321, like anyone else, but, besides that, nothing too different. Corner combos, an occasional AA, nothing too special.

X Ray: This match up in particular, assuming X Ray does go through Ice Clones, saving your X Ray can be very important. With a full meter, one mistaken Ice Clone could cost Sub a lot of life and a positional disadvantage.

I feel Reptile players are gonna' have to put a decent amount of work in to fight against a adept Sub Zero player, due to his ability to shut down our approach. Possible to win it, but we're gonna' have to do a good amount of work. Once we get close, the match up is basically ours, but, getting to that point can be a bit tricky. Be patient, and wait for the Sub to make a mistake, and capitalize.

45:55 (I really wanted to make it 45:55 due to the fact of we wreck him pretty good when we get close, but I personally feel his ability to make it difficult for us to get close outweighs that.
THTB's opinion: http://testyourmight.com/forum/showthread.php?4816-CHOMP-CHOMP-HISS!-The-Reptile-Matchup-Thread&p=58011&viewfull=1#post58011


Reptile: Reptile ditto's are silly. 100-0
Ermac
Noob Saibot
Smoke
Mileena
Kitana
Jade
Sektor
Cyrax
Cyber Sub
Sindel
Sonya
Jax
Johnny Cage
Stryker
Kung Lao
Liu Kang
Kano
Nightwolf
Kabal
Baraka
Tsung
Quan Chi
Raiden
Sheeva


Should we discuss Kratos? Due to him being banned?
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
That's actually how I feel on Cyber Sub, I'm not so sure about Sonya, though, since I have limited experience. Doesn't her divekick have a more vertical trajectory? If it does, I don't see it being nearly as bad, since with Cyber Sub, you HAVE to respect it, and it sets up whiff mixups or just a straight-up JP into 3 mixups.

Kano can get some mileage with his air cannonball, but that's really the only thing he can really do. There's only so much zoning with his knives he can get in. Jax, the same way, though he can't get in as well lol, and Sheeva has problems getting in as well, plus teleport stomp is near useless, since on reaction Reptile can just dash away (Good lord, is Reptile a slippery bastard XD!).

Scorpion, I feel is an even, maybe in our advantage slightly. Dash can be slipped in between his pressure, and even after hellfire, so he has to respect it, but he can tag us with a random spear if we get overzealous with it.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
@Milk, just read what you said about the arc kick. That thing, lol. Luckily Reptile's projectile recovery isn't super laggy.

Kang I find sorta easy when you have a life lead. His zoning gets cut off once a forceball is on the screen...no iAFs for him, lol. Plus, he's gonna want to do pressure strings, so there's lots of opportunities to slip in dashes to get him off of you.

Cyrax seems very much an even matchup, judging from my matches with Big Marcus. Net takes way too long to wear off lol...the only way I was actually able to deal with it was through blocking it, then either dashing in, or foreball to get him to block.
 

EGP Wonder_Chef

Official Quan Chi Nerf Demander™
Seems like Human Sub might be a somewhat bad matchup. His clones really mess up advancing with whiffed elbow dashes.


I'm starting to think Ermac might be slightly in Reptile's favor, just due to how incredibly far away he can punish whiffed lift or gravity squeeze.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Seems like Human Sub might be a somewhat bad matchup. His clones really mess up advancing with whiffed elbow dashes.


I'm starting to think Ermac might be slightly in Reptile's favor, just due to how incredibly far away he can punish whiffed lift or gravity squeeze.
Yeah, Sub's clone is ridiculously good, and what's more of a downer is that X-Ray does NOT go through clone. Reptile has a tough time getting in on Sub, and has to resort to attempting to zone, which is a bitch and a half because freeze is among the best projectiles when it comes to trades (Net and forceball being up there as well).

Ermac has a sweet spot where he can push and Reptile can't punish it or just whiff dash to get in because it gets blocked. That spot is VERY hard to keep for Ermac, mind you. Otherwise, Reptile zones WAY better than Ermac, IMO.
 

Milk

Snake eyes
I don't know if I just suck but Liu Kang and Cyrax give me the worst time.
Cyrax you're probably just approaching the match up wrong. Do everything possible to not let him get the bombs going, and same for nets. Don't let him distance himself, cause he'll just plant bombs, tele and try to set you up into them. Liu Kang is just a good character, he can zone, and close distance incredibly well. Try to set him in a position where he need sot bicycle kick or dive kick, and just try to tag him with a forceball before he gets to you. Try to elbow dash to approach between his fireballs.

That's actually how I feel on Cyber Sub, I'm not so sure about Sonya, though, since I have limited experience. Doesn't her divekick have a more vertical trajectory? If it does, I don't see it being nearly as bad, since with Cyber Sub, you HAVE to respect it, and it sets up whiff mixups or just a straight-up JP into 3 mixups.

Kano can get some mileage with his air cannonball, but that's really the only thing he can really do. There's only so much zoning with his knives he can get in. Jax, the same way, though he can't get in as well lol, and Sheeva has problems getting in as well, plus teleport stomp is near useless, since on reaction Reptile can just dash away (Good lord, is Reptile a slippery bastard XD!).

Scorpion, I feel is an even, maybe in our advantage slightly. Dash can be slipped in between his pressure, and even after hellfire, so he has to respect it, but he can tag us with a random spear if we get overzealous with it.
If we get quick enough, would we be able to tag him on a whiffed hellfire with elbow dash advancements? Like use one to get close, one to actually tag him?

@ Sheeva + Jax + Kano, pretty much, we can get around most zoning pretty easily, even if they try to zone, acid spit to shut down their zoning, and get a chance to advance.

@ Sonya, her dive kick is a bit more vertical, more comparable to Cyber Sub's 3 dive kick, but it's still dangerous, the qcb 4 is much scarier though.

Seems like Human Sub might be a somewhat bad matchup. His clones really mess up advancing with whiffed elbow dashes.


I'm starting to think Ermac might be slightly in Reptile's favor, just due to how incredibly far away he can punish whiffed lift or gravity squeeze.
Sub has been giving me a bit of trouble, but no more than Cyber Sub. Clones are good, but, if they get too predictable with cancelling normals with clones, just tag em with a fast forceball/acid spit. But, if they plant them correctly, it could really stuff our approach, like you said.

Ermac is so easy to punish. Just gotta' dash over and get you some. I've felt Ermac is one of our better match ups, maybe like 55/45 60/40.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Maybe. Dash whiffs are FAST. But one jump over in a lot of cases, I believe, is a free dash.

Also, I have an idea for an option select on Scorpion's wakeup. generic low (preferably d4) xx acid hand~block. Since Scorp only has EX spear and teleport for wakeup, we could theoretically go under the spear, and recover just in time on the teleport to block it for dash combo. Not sure how well it'd work.
 

Milk

Snake eyes
Maybe. Dash whiffs are FAST. But one jump over in a lot of cases, I believe, is a free dash.

Also, I have an idea for an option select on Scorpion's wakeup. generic low (preferably d4) xx acid hand~block. Since Scorp only has EX spear and teleport for wakeup, we could theoretically go under the spear, and recover just in time on the teleport to block it for dash combo. Not sure how well it'd work.
So as in do the down 4 while their grounded? So, if he gets up and spears, we'll be under it, and if he teleports, we'll tag him with green hand or block? What about sweep in that option too? Since it's so low, wouldn't we crouch the teleport too?
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
What would happen is, if EX spear is used, we'll duck under it while smacking off the 1-hit armor on it with the d4 and then hitting him with acid hand for another knockdown. If he teleports, acid hand won't come out and we recover in time to stand block the teleport, leading to a punish. If he blocks, you just get d4 xx acid hand blockstring. At least, that's how it'd theoretically work.

Pariah...HAHAHA yes, I'm changing it now!
 

Milk

Snake eyes
What would happen is, if EX spear is used, we'll duck under it while smacking off the 1-hit armor on it with the d4 and then hitting him with acid hand for another knockdown. If he teleports, acid hand won't come out and we recover in time to stand block the teleport, leading to a punish. If he blocks, you just get d4 xx acid hand blockstring. At least, that's how it'd theoretically work.

Pariah...HAHAHA yes, I'm changing it now!
Gotcha', I like it. Should, theoretically work with most teleport moves that hit. Like Ermac/Scorp/KungLao maybe? Can Kung Lao wake up teleport?
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Kung Lao has wakeup spin, if I'm not mistaken, and Ermac has lift/push for wakeup.

I just thought about it...it could work on Smoke maybe. Idk if smoke teleport has invincible frames on wakeup, though.
 
What would happen is, if EX spear is used, we'll duck under it while smacking off the 1-hit armor on it with the d4 and then hitting him with acid hand for another knockdown. If he teleports, acid hand won't come out and we recover in time to stand block the teleport, leading to a punish. If he blocks, you just get d4 xx acid hand blockstring. At least, that's how it'd theoretically work.

Pariah...HAHAHA yes, I'm changing it now!
i love you
 

Milk

Snake eyes
Kung Lao has wakeup spin, if I'm not mistaken, and Ermac has lift/push for wakeup.

I just thought about it...it could work on Smoke maybe. Idk if smoke teleport has invincible frames on wakeup, though.
Oh, stuffing Ermac's wake up shouldn't be hard. Bait it out, and punish.

Smoke, possibly, I'm the only person around me I know that uses Smoke, I'll mess with it some tonight and see. Anything to get Smoke off of our tails is good.

Thought about it, Smoke might be sort of a bad match up, haven't fought him much, but he could tele/smoke through our acid balls, as well as that quick as hell smoke bomb to stuff our approaches. And man he can be fast. And any air grab he gets, till the patch, he can get a lot of percent on us. :(
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Smoke bomb has really poor tracking, but comes out faster the closer you are, so from outside of like midscreen, we can dash past it, and he can't touch us with it. We can't forceball, though...in fact our projectiles come out way too slow. It's a free shake everytime on reaction. So pretty much both of our zoning sucks vs each other lol.

I think where we'll shine is the footsies battle. Reptile has among the best whiff punishers in the game...and it sets up oki after meter building. Smoke's normals don't have much range, and he has to respect random dash anyway. If Smoke attempts EX shake at the wrong time to relieve pressure or catch a random dash, free slide all day, and he wastes meter. I think it's definitely gonna be in our favor.
 

Milk

Snake eyes
I completely agree now that you put it in perspective.

Vs Scorpion, to punish hellfire you need a jump in and an instant elbow dash midscreen. Two elbow dashes, due to how you have to time it, the first one gets tagged by the hellfire. I think we should organize this and discuss this weekly per character. Why not start with Scorpion? our advantages/disadvantages vs him, and just go down the list?

Also, ex invis on elbow dash whiff, they can still tag you with a wake up attack, so, if they don't have meter to wake up attack, good option. If not, just do ex invis instead of elbow dash whiff and do stuff from there. But, on wake up attacks, when i tested with Sub, you still were able to block, so, Still get a free punish? Just messed with it with Scorpion, if you think they are going to wake up tele or leg grab, dash whiff ex invis is still a good option, both his wake up options get stuff by slide. So right when you ex invis, they are wake up attacking, so, if they do, just slide. Either stuffs it, or gets you out of range of the Scorp's wake up attacks, keeping your invis/power up.
 

EGP Wonder_Chef

Official Quan Chi Nerf Demander™
Smoke's normals don't have much range, and he has to respect random dash anyway. If Smoke attempts EX shake at the wrong time to relieve pressure or catch a random dash, free slide all day, and he wastes meter. I think it's definitely gonna be in our favor.
Actually he has some pretty good attacks with some decent range. His :l+:bp and :r+:bk are both pretty good. Not to mention his AMAZING sweep.

I think people have been underestimating smoke, he's going to be my alt.
 
Johnny Cage has been giving me problems, im not sure how to approach him, if i should attempt to zone him out or anything. all i know is i can punish his projectile full screen by dashing under it on reaction and then dashing again. aside from that, any tips?

the main thing that gets me is pressure from his 2,1 string. im not sure how to deal with it
 

EGP Wonder_Chef

Official Quan Chi Nerf Demander™
Definitely zone him if at all possible. His close up game is hard to beat. Luckily Reptile has some real good wakeup options.
 

Milk

Snake eyes
Definitely zone him if at all possible. His close up game is hard to beat. Luckily Reptile has some real good wakeup options.
Reptile has amazing wake up options, and amazing counters to opposing wake ups. Like I stated earlier, a good timed slide stuffs a lot of wake ups.
 
Ok. Thanks. And if im ever in the situation where he has me in the corner and im forced to block or guess, im assuming a random dash from time to time is ok. Until he starts to read it at least, but then again I have to do my best to keep away from the corner. I learn quick so I'll figure out this match well in no time
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Yeah, and even if you get stuck in the corner, EX dash is still an option since it pretty much swaps sides when blocked and is safe. If it hits, free combo. :)
 

Sevans

Noob
I kind of struggle with Kang when he starts going nuts with his high/low mix-up strings. I can usually get through them by being kind of random with dash/enhanced dash, but it's not something I typically want to rely on in case it gets blocked.

I know when he's going for his overhead launch string, the first two punches hit pretty high, so do you think that's a good opportunity uppercut him?

Sorry, I'm a little bit new to competitive MK.