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Match-Up Discussion - Goro Buffs Goro needs so he doesn't lose to the whole cast

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Lumpymoomilk

Lumpymoomilk

Online Punching Bag
2 things I would love, if the 3rd hit of b1,2,u2 would actually hit all the time, for ex punchwalk catching jumping opponents would just not just hit them once or twice then drop them without the pop up.

I know they hate making new moves, but good lord a priority air grab would help him so much, his only solid game is on ground, against njp's jump ins ect he is ass. I play Sonyas, Lao, Kung Jin, they back up I move in and they just low dive kick, too late to b2 or d2, u1 or u2 doesnt work in time. Basically everyone in this game has a half decent anti air option but Goro for jump ins some even pop them up for a combo while Goro gets booted and slapped in the face consistently for free.
 
ultrasimmons

ultrasimmons

Thanks
So instead of the D2 buff, why not just give Shokan Grab a tweaked box to also reach into the air? He's got four friggin arms, use two on the ground and two to reach into the skies. I'm imagining something like RoboSmoke's Air Grab or Jax's Air Grab from UMK3 kind of "catch your ass just about anywhere if you jump on me".
 
chief713

chief713

Vertebral Subluxationist
I agree with FK's list except:

U1/U2: Changed to 8 frame start up (down from 14)
That's really unnecessary, TBH. It's not supposed to be anything other than a crossover stopper, and it's fast enough to do that pretty well. Granted, it's a really hard read and you risk a lot doing it so I DON'T think it's a great move. But it functions like supposed to as is and buffing it's speed isn't going to make it any better at doing what it already does.

Punchwalk: On block there are 3 hits, Goro should be able to cancel at least 2 of them into Shokan Grab.
With punch walk being safe and cancellable from everything, that's just kind of OP. You're pretty much guaranteed damage anytime you get a touch. And Goro already gets TWO safe 50/50s with possible corner carry off of every D3 hit. So if you land a D3 they can get hit for 50/50 into combo, or block the 50/50 and get put into a blockstring with 2 50/50's in it, OR just get raw command grabbed off of the D3 frame adv. Come on man.

Chest Lunge: 10 recovery frames on whiff (down from 34)
Like the U1/2 change, I just don't think this is necessary. Chest lunge is 10 frames startup and goes hella far; it's a punishing tool and it works for that just fine. Lowering the recovery doesn't really help it do that any better.

For Shokan grab, if you meant more vertical range then I agree. It already goes pretty far horizontally, but that bullshit with it whiffing off of D1/D3 is maddening as fuck. You already get punished into oblivion if you read it wrong so WTF do you get punished for guessing it right??

Instead of making punch walk cancellable into command grab, I would decrease the startup of F2 to 15-17 frames and make F21 cancellable into command grab. That way that string series becomes useful. There's no low/overhead in the F2 series and all of the enders send the opponent full screen on hit and it's 22 frames startup so it's really not threatening at all.

Making it around 15 -17 puts comparable to F3 speed with less range. And it gives him a legit mixup of ending the string or ticking into command grab. In return I would make F21(2+4) -1 on block instead of +2. That, along with FK's other proposed changes and I think Goro will be fine. AA is his main problem really. I'd say make his uppercut 8 frames :D...or 9. And he's good.
 
D_Matt_Ma

D_Matt_Ma

Sheeva isn't Goro's wife. Goro is her husband.
No Dragon Fang comments? That tells you how much it sucks...

I've said it many times, but change the input of D/B2 to D/F2 so it doesn't overlap with DB2 spin. Also, either the recovery or the start-up needs to be reduced by 2 frames as the move is too slow to hit consistently and too unsafe on whiff to be taken seriously. A Hard knockdown would be nice, but not absolutely necessary.

Command Throw in Dragon Fang also needs a buff. Since the throw sends them across the screen and this variation has no ranged options, we need for it to either hit harder or give significantly more advantage on hit so he can approach back again. Right now, this variation's command throw has the least advantage of his 3.
 
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I GOT HANDS

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
GAV said:
@C88 Zombieekiller
@Sage Leviathan
@Neferefre

It's about downplaying.

Sub Zero vs Goro is a 5-5 matchup, really?

Really?

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Wait are you saying this isn't a 5-5 match up? :confused: because that doesn't make much sense to me

Goro is definitely one of the weakest characters in the cast. Sub-Zero is definitely solid mid tier.

But if you've played this match up from EITHER side, I think you'd realise that this is one where Goro really doesn't struggle as much.
 
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GAV

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
D_Matt_Ma said:
No Dragon Fang comments? That tells you how much it sucks...

I've said it many times, but change the input of D/B2 to D/F2 so it doesn't overlap with DB2 spin. Also, either the recovery or the start-up needs to be reduced by 2 frames as the move is too slow to hit consistently and too unsafe on whiff to be taken seriously. A Hard knockdown would be nice, but not absolutely necessary.

Command Throw in Dragon Fang also needs a buff. Since the throw sends them across the screen and this variation has no ranged options, we need for it to either hit harder or give significantly more advantage on hit so he can approach back again. Right now, this variation's command throw has the least advantage of his 3.
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Dragon Fang is the easiest to use.
 
Espio

Espio

Kokomo
I GOT HANDS said:
Wait are you saying this isn't a 5-5 match up? :confused: because that doesn't make much sense to me

Goro is definitely one of the weakest characters in the cast. Sub-Zero is definitely solid mid tier.

But if you've played this match up from EITHER side, I think you'd realise that this is one where Goro really doesn't struggle as much.
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Naw bro, stop downplaying :mad:. In reality, it's a very fun match up and I suspect you even Steven camp members are on the mark.
 
I GOT HANDS

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
GAV said:
Its not.

I don't play much Sub Zero, but I house Goros with him - especially in Cryomancer. Goro has no answer for his speedy mixups.
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Really? This just sounds like Buzzwords. He can punish our overhead just fine. He can punish Clone cancels really well, he can punish Iceball from anywhere really well, and Sub's corner game vs him is nowhere near as strong as it usually is, you have the safest corner wake up in the game and it goes straight through Clone AND another hit, meaning we really have to respect it, especially since it carries all the way back to midscreen.

And that's just part of the reason why I think it's EVEN, not at all unbalanced. Goro's strengths play well to him in this match, but not too much (he's still goro!) and I think it ends up being a pretty good 5-5.

To be fair, Cryomancer might be a different thing. In fact it probably would be a lot better for Sub. I was more talking about Grandmaster.
 
4x4lo8o

4x4lo8o

Noob
If you're going to improve the range on the command grab, improve the vertical hitbox while you're at it. Cassie does not need to be able to crouch under it
 
GAV

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
@I GOT HANDS

The Goro/SZ Matchup...

As long as the SZ and Goro players are equal in terms of skill, the Goro player has to work his tail off to stay in striking distance to win at the end. If the SZ uses his head, he can stay relatively clean for the majority of the match.

We know Goro can armor through or air drop around the clone against GM Sub, but that's all he can do. So, as long as GM Sub doesn't try to throw out clones during exchanges, he still has the advantage. GM Sub Zeros have the advantage a long as they use their head. Goro players are still limited in their options here.

BTW - I'm not saying SZ is top tier. I know he's not, but he has the advantage in this matchup across all variations - IMO.
 
Espio

Espio

Kokomo
I GOT HANDS said:
Really? This just sounds like Buzzwords. He can punish our overhead just fine. He can punish Clone cancels really well, he can punish Iceball from anywhere really well, and Sub's corner game vs him is nowhere near as strong as it usually is, you have the safest corner wake up in the game and it goes straight through Clone AND another hit, meaning we really have to respect it, especially since it carries all the way back to midscreen.

And that's just part of the reason why I think it's EVEN, not at all unbalanced. Goro's strengths play well to him in this match, but not too much (he's still goro!) and I think it ends up being a pretty good 5-5.

To be fair, Cryomancer might be a different thing. In fact it probably would be a lot better for Sub. I was more talking about Grandmaster.
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This is how you discuss why you feel a match is certain way, not goofy buzzwords or irrelevant points like trouncing the dime store users of a character. i beat all the Kung Jins I play with Goro (guess he wins,except that makes no sense and is weak at best). For the record, I would say Grandmaster and unbreakable should do better than cryo, especially considering ice hammer gaps and having to approach Goro without parry protection or a clone sounds about as fun as running into a football player face first, but clearly dem mix ups bro. As long as you use your head Sub wins and apparently " he has limited options".
 
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Immortal Kombat

Immortal Kombat

almost moderate success
Man, If I get command grabs off my pw, that's dd all over again. Wouldn't even need the other buffs if they did that.
The rest of your suggestions are good imo. U2 should be viable for post pw meta. And there's several moves on this game that need to recapture more. It's not just goro starting combos that drop and he gets punished. So I say either all the buffs mentioned except command grab in pw, or allow goro to have command grabs in the pw. Not both
 
GAV

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
Espio said:
This is how you discuss why you feel a match is certain way, not goofy buzzwords or irrelevant points like trouncing the dime store users of a character. i beat all the Kung Jins I play with Goro (guess he wins,except that makes no sense and is weak at best). For the record, I would say Grandmaster and unbreakable should do better than cryo, especially considering ice hammer gaps and having to approach Goro without parry protection or a clone sounds about as fun as running into a football player face first, but clearly dem mix ups bro. As long as you use your head Sub wins and apparently " he has limited options".
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Using GM Sub against Goro, just use clone like Sorcerer Quan Chi uses his armor stance, as opposed to how SZ players normally use it.

I think even GM Sub still has the advantage in this matchup. Now, Unbreakable Sub, I think is at a disadvantage, but that's just a feeling. I don't have enough experience to really judge that matchup.
 
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