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General/Other - Ancestral Ancestral Variation Discussion Thread

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Creating this thread to talk about all things Ancestral. I have findings to post which I will do at some point but for now whoever has anything they want to discuss feel free to.

Stuff to talk about:
Optimal meter drain/fire arrow damage combos
Matchups I guess


Optimal Combos:
Thanks to PPJ for this one, 43% meterless midscreen
(with stun arrow loaded) J2, 343~DD2, DD1, run cancel~J2~air DD2, run cancel~34, instant air D4, 34~DD2

In the corner:
(with stun arrow loaded) 221~stun arrow, load fire arrow, slight step back J2~DD2, 34~DB2, instant air D4, J3~DD2, 24 47% corner meterless

Bnbs:
Midscreen: (with stun arrow loaded) starter~DD2, DD1, (run cancel depending on starter)J2~air DD2, run cancel~34, instant air D4, 34~DD2

In the corner: *34 can be replaced with 11 for slightly less damage but an easier followup
(with stun arrow loaded) Starter~stun arrow, DD1, super late NJP, instant DF2, J3~DD2, *34, instant air D4, 34~DD2 = roughly 37-41%


Miscellaneous things to know about the variation:
Arrows

Normal arrows themselves do 4% damage on hit with the ex version doing 7.8%. The advantage on block changes depending on the type of arrow used (ground, air), the distance it's used at and/or the height from the ground the arrow is laucnhed at but generally the normal one is unsafe and the ex version is plus on block.

For the full data concerning which moves are safe or unsafe on hit and on block when cancelled into an arrow load (ie. doing a string like B14 then cancelling it into an arrow load (DB1/DD1/DF1) like so: B14~DB1) check this thread: http://testyourmight.com/threads/ancestral-load-arrow-cancel-frame-data.56030/
or look at the spoiler below if you'd just rather see the safe cancels on hit on block:
11 : +5
111 : -2
B1 : -4
B14 : +1
U1 : -1
22 : -1
221 : -6 (against anyone without a 6 frame normal or special)
B2 : +4
B21 : -3
B214 : +1
F2 : -6 (against anyone without a 6 frame normal or special)
F24 : -2
F243 and F2D1 and 343 since they launch
3 : +5
34 : +3
B3 : -5
F3 : -5
D3 : -1
4 : -1
D4 : -2
221 : -6 (exc. Rep)
F243 : -5
4 : -4

Some cancels are safe when used from a distance like 111~cancel (-7 on block) so experiment to see what you can find for different matchups.

Firstly try not to use raw arrows at the end of a blockstring, they are very unsafe at -12 on block. However EX straight arrows are plus 7 on block and are my personal go to use of meter besides armour and breakers. All arrows last 6 seconds and have unlimited uses in that time besides the stun arrow which has one shot before you will need to load another arrow. Below are descriptions of each arrow type and what they do on hit and on block, with each colour representing the colour of arrow:

Stun arrow (DB1) -
On hit: 1%. Restands the opponent. Gives enough hit advantage to load another arrow of any type and continue the combo. After the restand end with JI2~34 (more damaging) or JI2~11 (more hit advantage) for enough hit advantage to go for a safe hit-confirmable mixup between B14 (0 on block) and F24 (-8 on block). Or after the restand you can do JI2~34~reload for a safe arrow load that leaves you +5 on hit, but unfortunately you don't get anything guaranteed after it. You can also just continue the combo after the restand with a NJP, JK~DK for example for more damage or an extra arrow hit.
On block: 0.62%. Don't ever use this on block, not only does it only do 0.62% chip (which is 41% of the normal arrow's chip damage) but is also still unsafe.
Useful for: Restanding from/for conversions, creating a vortex on your opponent (although it doesn't do huge damage). One of your most important arrows for midscreen and closer for hit confirms.​

Vampiric arrow (DF1) -

On hit: 2%. Normal one drains about 2/5 of a bar of your opponent's meter, EX version steals 4/5 of a bar.
On block: 3%. Only steals 3/20 of a bar of meter, EX steals about 3/10 of a bar.
Useful for: Although his zoning is mediocre, when you are zoning or at least far from the opponent this becomes an important arrow for hindering your opponent's offensive and wakeup options as well as defensive options like armour and breakers. I tend to keep this one on pretty often until I'm happy the opponent has as little meter as I want them to have then I switch to stun arrow and begin offence. Also important for matchups against characters who don't use meter in their combos so you take away the only tool they have that stops you from hitting them hard too.​

Fire arrow (DD1) -
On hit: 9%. Does more damage than a normal arrow and laucnhes the opponent unlike the other arrows, EX fire arrows do 12% damage.
On block: 3.13%. Does more chip damage, with EX fire arrows doing even more chip at 4.25%.
Useful for: Bnbs, converting from a stun arrow starter into big meterless damage, extra chip damage and more damaging combos. Great for very high damage meterless corner combos. Use more often nearer the end of the game when midscreen to chip the opponent out or get that killing damage.

Corner
F2D1~load arrow, D1, ender : Use this to load an arrow of your choice on hit. For example load stun arrow after the F2D1 then D1, 11, instant air divekick, 34~DD2 to restand your opponent and set up a corner mixup. Or load meter drain arrow and take some meter, or equip fire arrow and do some damage. Be careful as this setup is -10 on block which is punishable by pretty much everybody in the cast.

Optimal Vampiric Arrow usage:
3 arrow combos (takes about a bar and 1/5th:
With vampiric arrow loaded first: F2D1~DB2, 34~DB2, D1~DD2 = 16% (takes a bar and 1/5)
With stun arrow loaded first: starter~DF2/DD2, DF1, NJP, JK~OH arrow, JK~OH arrow, 11, IADK, 34~DD2 = roughly 29%ish depending on starter (takes about a bar and 1/4)
Ancestrals (if you want to to tag them in a tech thread for example)
@Youphemism
@RM NoBrows
@HanSolo
@Envythis
Chris to the G
@MF SLAYER
@Poser Paul
@buyacushun
@Envythis
@STB CoRzz
@KIllaByte
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
As much as I love ancestral I just feels he's really weak in damage and it hurts him bad
Well it depends what arrows you're using and what combos you're doing. If you equip fire arrows it'll boost your damage, and you can get about 47% meterless in the corner using them (and a stun arrow first) according to PPJ. And with the stun arrow you can restand the opponent and continue the combo with a NJP or something.
Very nice, thanks for making this.
No problem!
 

HanSolo

Noob
Not sure ig common knowledge but:
In nobrow's combo thread he has the 52% xray combo off of ji4. I just noticed you can get 51% off of a njp. Njp, 4, fire arrow up, 34, xray.
It should be noted that if you do this off a stun set up like f24 lowstun or b13 lowstun you only get 48%
 

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
If anyone has anything good please tag me as well. I always liked Green Arrows arsenal and was glad to see it in Kung Jin. A little dissapointed it isn't as good because of the timer. Is there an effective reason to using the meter drain arrows? I figured the only time you would opt for them is against a non teleport character and you had life lead.
 

skater11

The saltiest
Ancestral does suffer mid screen damage with no arrow enhancement. But I find that if you block something punishable then you can ia DK into a safe arrow load or just get the corner carry if you wish. Even NJP as early as possible is ideal, if you know your opponents frame data.

I've broke down ancestral by myself and I know quite a lot about him I'll be sharing info here quite often. But would like to hear from others too.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
If anyone has anything good please tag me as well. I always liked Green Arrows arsenal and was glad to see it in Kung Jin. A little dissapointed it isn't as good because of the timer. Is there an effective reason to using the meter drain arrows? I figured the only time you would opt for them is against a non teleport character and you had life lead.
The timer does suck, but I guess that was their way of making the variation more balanced. Actually I find myself using the meter drain arrows quite a lot, they even drain meter on block! This can be really effective at hindering your opponents options if you use MB arrows which is the only reason I use meter in this matchup (besides armour on EX flip and breakers) since normal arrow is punishable but EX isn't. Then once I've made sure they've got no meter I'll equip stun arrow and mix them up which I'll still be safe on :) I only really equip fire arrows near the end of the game where the extra chip will come in handy, and MB fire arrows can do some decent chip and damage on hit too for the end game play.
@Youphemism what the hell are you doing venturing in here? Lol! You're playing some Kung Jin on the side now?
Did you not know I play a multitude of characters? I've been playing pretty much 2/3 of the cast for a while now lol. Check the Hat Trick discussion, Demo Sonya, Gunslinger Erron, Vicious F/T, the list goes on...never mind Cybernetic Kano, Shotgun Jacqui and Necro Shinnok :coffee:
Ancestral does suffer mid screen damage with no arrow enhancement. But I find that if you block something punishable then you can ia DK into a safe arrow load or just get the corner carry if you wish. Even NJP as early as possible is ideal, if you know your opponents frame data.

I've broke down ancestral by myself and I know quite a lot about him I'll be sharing info here quite often. But would like to hear from others too.
I'll make sure to give my input too once I find a little time.
 

Bomborge

Aspiring scrub
I've been labbing him a bit today. Been wanting to play him for a while due to the green arrow vibe. Anyways, you can get a mini-vortex of sorts after the stun arrow by hitting 34 or 11. 3,4 leaves you at +21 but will do a bit more damage while 11 leaves you at +32. I would only use this when you're down by a huge life deficit though as I know Erron Black has a similar tool in outlaw, but I only use it when under a life deficit.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
I've been labbing him a bit today. Been wanting to play him for a while due to the green arrow vibe. Anyways, you can get a mini-vortex of sorts after the stun arrow by hitting 34 or 11. 3,4 leaves you at +21 but will do a bit more damage while 11 leaves you at +32. I would only use this when you're down by a huge life deficit though as I know Erron Black has a similar tool in outlaw, but I only use it when under a life deficit.
Yeah this is kinda day 1 tech lol. I'll update the OP with some stuff so people know what's already been found.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
If anyone has anything to add to the OP feel free to post it in here. I need properties of the arrows, how long they last or how many of the arrow you have until it runs out for example, I can't remember that off the top of my head.
Youph plays everyone... but no one at tournaments :joker:
That's 2 today @Youphemism, 2!!!!!!!!!
?
 
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skater11

The saltiest
I was gonna make a video but I'll just post here. In the corner, with no arrow enhancement whatsoever you can do f2d1xxload stun arrow, d1, 11, iaDK, 11, 34xxlow arrow. It's 20% into a standing reset. It's not really a big find but it's a nice option when you have no arrows, not to mention it starts with a OH low. Feel free to customize it for your own and maybe find a more damaging version. Possibilities are there, I just share what I can do consistent. Keep in mind that f2d1 is punishable on block but it is also very hit confirmable so you can cancel into EXdf2, EXdb4, or dd2/db4(if you want to take the risk).
@buyacushun
 
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Bomborge

Aspiring scrub
I was gonna make a video but I'll just post here. In the corner, with no arrow enhancement whatsoever you can do f2d1xxload stun arrow, d1, 11, iaDK, 11, 34xxlow arrow. It's 20% into a standing reset. It's not really a big find but it's a nice option when you have no arrows, not to mention it starts with a OH low. Feel free to customize it for your own and maybe find a more damaging version. Possibilities are there, I just share what I can do consistent. Keep in mind that f2d1 is punishable on block but it is also very hit confirmable so you can cancel into EXdf2, EXdb4, or dd2/db4(if you want to take the risk).
What are your go to bnbs? I've been trying to break 30% midscreen but can't find a way to do so without sacrificing the reload.

Also, @Youphemism all arrows last 6 real seconds (3 game time) and have unlimited uses besides the stun arrow which has one shot before you reload. The vampire arrows on block steal a bit under 1/6 of a bar.
 
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ZigZag

That Welsh Guy
If anyone has anything to add to the OP feel free to post it in here. I need properties of the arrows, how long they last or how many of the arrow you have until it runs out for example, I can't remember that off the top of my head.

?
Did you not see my other dig? awwwh you're slow catchup!
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
I was gonna make a video but I'll just post here. In the corner, with no arrow enhancement whatsoever you can do f2d1xxload stun arrow, d1, 11, iaDK, 11, 34xxlow arrow. It's 20% into a standing reset. It's not really a big find but it's a nice option when you have no arrows, not to mention it starts with a OH low. Feel free to customize it for your own and maybe find a more damaging version. Possibilities are there, I just share what I can do consistent. Keep in mind that f2d1 is punishable on block but it is also very hit confirmable so you can cancel into EXdf2, EXdb4, or dd2/db4(if you want to take the risk).
Yeah I've been doing this since I picked up the variation, I'll add it to the OP too. I've also been doing (with vampiric arrows on) F2D1~DB2, 34~DB2, D1~DD2. TRIPLE meter drain arrow, it's great.
 

skater11

The saltiest
What are your go to bnbs? I've been trying to break 30% midscreen but can't find a way to do so without sacrificing the reload.

Also, @Youphemism all arrows last 6 real seconds (3 game time) and have unlimited uses besides the stun arrow which has one shot before you reload. The vampire arrows on block steal a bit under 1/6 of a bar.
It really depends what I feel like going for...like a setup or just damage. But anyways here goes a combo for dmg.
Stun arrow loaded: String starter of your choicexxstun arrow, load fire arrow, dashNJP, walk 11, walk/run 34, iaDK, run 34xxlow Fire arrow.

Edit: wait you meant without a loaded stun arrow?
 

Bomborge

Aspiring scrub
It really depends what I feel like going for...like a setup or just damage. But anyways here goes a combo for dmg.
Stun arrow loaded: String starter of your choicexxstun arrow, load fire arrow, dashNJP, walk 11, walk/run 34, iaDK, run 34xxlow Fire arrow.

Edit: wait you meant without a loaded stun arrow?
Meant ending with the reload and loaded stun arrow.
 

Bomborge

Aspiring scrub
You can probably throw in a 343xxload arrow as a combo ender but I haven't tested it. I'll be able to play in a few hours. I'll see what I can come up with.
Yeah, thats what I've been doing. Just hoping that since you have more experience with the character, you had some higher damage reload combos. All I can get really is starterxxlow arrow,dash,njp, j4,divekick,rc,343 for about 28%.
 

skater11

The saltiest
Yeah, thats what I've been doing. Just hoping that since you have more experience with the character, you had some higher damage reload combos. All I can get really is starterxxlow arrow,dash,njp, j4,divekick,rc,343 for about 28%.
Well if you count 343 as a starter it's 34%. Lol. But that's probably as high as it will get midscreen unless someone can prove us wrong.
 

SLH7671

When in doubt, armor out.
I'm a noob so this is my attempt.

Ending a restand in the corner with 11xxload should leave you at +1, making d1 6 frames startup. You could possibly use d1xxlow stun to try to catch counter pokers? If I sound like a complete jackass I apologize.