Question - Summoner A suggestion to balancing Summoner

[I GOT HANDS]

The pseudo is a seperate issue. Quan still needs to be rebalanced regardless of whether the pseudo stays or goes, unblockable vortexes is just bad game design, however he still got completely unnecessary buffs in the latest patch which means he needs to be toned down or he will stay ridiculous. If you want to counterweigh every upcoming nerf with a buff to make up for it, he's gonna remain just as strong. In fact, this change would likely leave him even stronger. Flat nerfing QC is what will happen here.

 

[ienjoywinning]

The pseudo is a seperate issue. Quan still needs to be rebalanced regardless of whether the pseudo stays or goes, unblockable vortexes is just bad game design, however he still got completely unnecessary buffs in the latest patch which means he needs to be toned down or he will stay ridiculous. If you want to counterweigh every upcoming nerf with a buff to make up for it, he's gonna remain just as strong. In fact, this change would likely leave him even stronger. Flat nerfing QC is what will happen here.

What should nrs nerf then? As ketchup said one wrong nerf would destroy him and one wrong buff would break him.

 

[Nuovo_Cabjoy]

The pseudo is a seperate issue. Quan still needs to be rebalanced regardless of whether the pseudo stays or goes, unblockable vortexes is just bad game design, however he still got completely unnecessary buffs in the latest patch which means he needs to be toned down or he will stay ridiculous. If you want to counterweigh every upcoming nerf with a buff to make up for it, he's gonna remain just as strong. In fact, this change would likely leave him even stronger. Flat nerfing QC is what will happen here.

The proposed change is almost fine but not quite. It should simply be that bat scaling increases, and need to spend bar to get the low bat option. Bat should never persist. My attitude towards how @colt has opted to design Quan and any other character with pseudo unblockables in this game is that they're something he intended, and as such the game should persist how he wants it. They're here to stay so there's not a single god damned reason anybody should continue to say it must be removed. This is how the game was intended to work, so as competitors we learn to adapt. It's as simple as that. And the ability to only use this tactic for the cost of, realistically, 2 bars, then it'll be absolutely fine.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

The proposed change is almost fine but not quite. It should simply be that bat scaling increases, and need to spend bar to get the low bat option. Bat should never persist. My attitude towards how @colt has opted to design Quan and any other character with pseudo unblockables in this game is that they're something he intended, and as such the game should persist how he wants it. They're here to stay so there's not a single god damned reason anybody should continue to say it must be removed. This is how the game was intended to work, so as competitors we learn to adapt. It's as simple as that. And the ability to only use this tactic for the cost of, realistically, 2 bars, then it'll be absolutely fine.

I think you've completely misunderstood what I'm saying bro. I'm saying the pseudo has absolutely nothing to do with this Quan Chi being OP - the pseudo was there before the recent patch. I personally do think the pseudo should be removed, but thats irrelevant to this thread as it's not why everyone is complaining about QC. Nerfing the pseudo is not the answer here, I think we both agree on that. And it certainly isn't justification to give him an amazing wake up option.

 

[ienjoywinning]

I think you've completely misunderstood what I'm saying bro. I'm saying the pseudo has absolutely nothing to do with this Quan Chi being OP - the pseudo was there before the recent patch. I personally do think the pseudo should be removed, but thats irrelevant to this thread as it's not why everyone is complaining about QC. Nerfing the pseudo is not the answer here, I think we both agree on that. And it certainly isn't justification to give him an amazing wake up option.

Lets give him a 6f armored move thats plus on block

 

[Zoidberg747]

I knew it would come to that) was expecting this to be your initial reaction though. We will have to agree to disagree than. Because I don't consider pseudo-unblockable a Quan exclusive problem. It is universal. Several characters can create this situation and at least three others who can (Cassie, D 'vorah, Predator) are in top 5 just like Quan. So this problem needs to be addressed universally, because other characters who can create such set ups have a lot more defensive options than Quan does.
Now if we scale Quan's damage as I have suggested he now will need more resources and more opportunities to touch his opponent in order to kill him. This, in the context of him being a glass canon, will have some serious consequences for him. Lacking defensive options Quan will give his opponents more opportunities to lock him down with pressure. This will definitely be a nerf and this concept of him being a glass canon (shattering at pressure but hitting hard if given an opportunity) will be thrown out of the window. And if that is the case I consider it to be fair for him to receive some defensive options.
This is just my opinion though. You don't have to agree. You can still call me a downplayer. But I do agree he is top 5 for sure now. What I don't want to accept though is all this nerf demands around Quan while there are just as broken characters in the game right now. And they don't even have a particular weakness to be exploited like Quan does. I am not saying Quan's weaknesses advocate his broken offense, all I am saying is he has some obvious weaknesses. And other characters in top 5 really don't.

The other hard to blockables are not nearly as good because A. They dont lead into a vortex if they hit, B. They have a much larger window to defend and C. They actually require some setup whereas Quan gets it off any trance.

Tbh I would say just make him unable to summon bat while the other person is tranced. I know this would hurt his damage but its already ridiculous anyway so I dont really mind. I think the idea of EX bat being able to be summoned is interesting but it should be mid so that it can only be used in combos.

 

[ienjoywinning]

The other hard to blockables are not nearly as good because A. They dont lead into a vortex if they hit, B. They have a much larger window to defend and C. They actually require some setup whereas Quan gets it off any trance.

Tbh I would say just make him unable to summon bat while the other person is tranced. I know this would hurt his damage but its already ridiculous anyway so I dont really mind. I think the idea of EX bat being able to be summoned is interesting but it should be mid so that it can only be used in combos.

No, if he cant summon his bat while mid trance he cant send you full screen and you lose like 8-4-8%+ and like 10%+ in the corner thats abit too much we are trying to normalize him , not completely kill him.

 

[Zoidberg747]

No, if he cant summon his bat while mid trance he cant send you full screen and you lose like 8-4-8%+ and like 10%+ in the corner thats abit too much we are trying to normalize him , not completely kill him.

Just make it so he has to spend a bar for EX bar, like the OP said.

 

[legion666]

The other hard to blockables are not nearly as good because A. They dont lead into a vortex if they hit, B. They have a much larger window to defend and C. They actually require some setup whereas Quan gets it off any trance.

Tbh I would say just make him unable to summon bat while the other person is tranced. I know this would hurt his damage but its already ridiculous anyway so I dont really mind. I think the idea of EX bat being able to be summoned is interesting but it should be mid so that it can only be used in combos.

Predator Hunter has set ups both midscreen and in the corner where he ends a combo in a hard knockdown with the trap lying underneath the opponent, he then can go into one of his overhead options. This set ups :
A. Don't need to lead into a vortex as some of them destroy wake ups and two of Hunters combos take you lifebar, so he doesn't need more than one combo into such set up into another combo.
B. Just as hard to block as Quan's if done right ( they can hit low-overhead,overhead-low, or even low-overhead-low, low-low-overhead and God knows in how many other ways) and can be done a frame or two apart as well.
C. Can be set up almost off of any combo ( sometimes giving up some damage of the initial combo, but that is exactly what Quan does when he goes for a vortex off of trance)
On top of that Predator has a viable wake up/ reversal attack which actually reaches 3/4 of the screen, switches positions in your favour and leads into huge damage into a set up. And his 8 frame d4 with incredible reach to set ups his toys. Why isn't anyone complaining about that?!?! I don't see 4 Nerf Predator threads to be around.

 

[Rearawt]

Why isn't anyone complaining about that?!?! I don't see 4 Nerf Predator threads to be around.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone mention Hunter Predator (in regards to balance) and it not be a complaint. But Hunter Predator also wasn't buffed.
And he also can't do 50+% unbreakable combos

 

[Tony at Home]

...this looks like a stealth buff...

Can we please stop buffing this character?

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

If the goal is to remove pseudo-unblockables, wouldn't it make sense to make Bat act like Sonya's Drone in SF? Meaning it can't be used while Quan is performing other moves but can still be cancelled into it.

That way, the damage is untouched, Quan won't be meter-hungry, and the 50/50s can stay safe.


'Cause I like the idea of EX Bat, but it keeps the pseudo-unblockable and his reset gives him way more risk than reward when meterless. Might as well play Sorcerer.

 

[legion666]

I don't think I've ever seen anyone mention Hunter Predator (in regards to balance) and it not be a complaint. But Hunter Predator also wasn't buffed.
And he also can't do 50+% unbreakable combos

Quan does 50%+ unbreakable with 3 bars. Predator Hunter does over 50% midscreen (breakable though) with 2 bars, and 60%+ with 2 bars in the corner. They are at about the same level of brokenness)))

 

[legion666]

If the goal is to remove pseudo-unblockables, wouldn't it make sense to make Bat act like Sonya's Drone in SF? Meaning it can't be used while Quan is performing other moves but can still be cancelled into it.

That way, the damage is untouched, Quan won't be meter-hungry, and the 50/50s can stay safe.


'Cause I like the idea of EX Bat, but it keeps the pseudo-unblockable and his reset gives him way more risk than reward when meterless. Might as well play Sorcerer.

The goal isn't the removal of unblockable, if it has to go it must go universally for every character that can do such set ups. The goal is if this stays in the game make it cost more resources and encourage Quan players to use less of this broken, risky but now meter draining tactic in favor of usual safe 50/50 and high damaging combos.

 

[The_Tile]

Just make it so he has to spend a bar for EX bar, like the OP said.

Then his midscreen bnbs would cost 2 bars. This whole talk of not being able to summon a bat mid combo is ridiculous, I hated the low bat being mid bit even I'd prefer that to this.

All he needs is a lot more damage scaling on all his bat attacks, and a universal nerf to hard-to-blockables. And seeing as people are hella overreacting to his D1 just bump that back up a few frames on the startup to keep people happy.

 

[Rearawt]

Predator Hunter does over 50% midscreen (breakable though) with 2 bars, and 60%+ with 2 bars in the corner

Does he still do that after the nerf? Their combo thread doesn't have those

 

[ID_Moi_LSac]

Quan does 50%+ unbreakable with 3 bars. Predator Hunter does over 50% midscreen (breakable though) with 2 bars, and 60%+ with 2 bars in the corner. They are at about the same level of brokenness)))

Please stop sharing false informations about Predator just to try to deviate the hate from Quan Chi... Predator has got a damage scaling nerf last patch so you should revise your numbers. Most of Predator's midscreen and corner setups with trap are escapable with delayed wakeup or tech rolls. Quan's vortex > Predator's setups.

 

[xInfra Deadx]

Quan does 50%+ unbreakable with 3 bars. Predator Hunter does over 50% midscreen (breakable though) with 2 bars, and 60%+ with 2 bars in the corner. They are at about the same level of brokenness)))

Predator does not get that kind of crazy damage anymore.

 

[The_Tile]

While @legion666 maybe a bit misinformed on Predator, his point still stands. There's plenty other hard to block setups in this game and if that's the real problem then a universal solution shold be found.

While Quan obviously sets his up easier, every other character with hard to block setups can counter tech roll, or any other thing people see as a free way out, to make the opponent think twice about trying to escape the setup.

 

[Rearawt]

While Quan obviously sets his up easier, every other character with hard to block setups can counter tech roll, or any other thing people see as a free way out, to make the opponent think twice about trying to escape the setup

Bit ironic to hear that coming from the guy who said having a charged b2 is completely irrelevant and useless to quan's setups because you should never ever get hit by it since it's so easy to escape with a jab.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

The goal isn't the removal of unblockable, if it has to go it must go universally for every character that can do such set ups. The goal is if this stays in the game make it cost more resources and encourage Quan players to use less of this broken, risky but now meter draining tactic in favor of usual safe 50/50 and high damaging combos.

Who else has pseudo-unblockables on the level of Quan? Pred Hunter? But isn't Pred's on knockdown though so you can escape by wake-up?

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

Who else has pseudo-unblockables on the level of Quan? Pred Hunter? But isn't Pred's on knockdown though so you can escape by wake-up?

Noone has Quan's vortex. That guy probably knows nothing about Pred

 

[The_Tile]

Bit ironic to hear that coming from the guy who said having a charged b2 is completely irrelevant and useless to quan's setups because you should never ever get hit by it since it's so easy to escape with a jab.

What are you on? I said he can definitely be armored out of it by most of the cast and he can maybe be poked out of the setups with charged B2. The reason I said maybe is cause I'm sure I saw a video about it but I haven't bother to lab it myself properly yet. If you know a guaranteed setup then let me know, but as far as I'm aware none have been found yet.

Also yes, I have labbed the charged B2 setups a bit, enough to know that it only works if the low bat hits first and then the overhead pops up, otherwise Quan is still in the recovery of charged B2 when the opponent hits the ground cause the low bat doesn't launch as high. So IF any setups are found, as long as you learn how to fuzzy guard it there shouldn't really be any issues. It's nowhere near as useful as the more practical shit everyone has already found.

 

[The_Tile]

Who else has pseudo-unblockables on the level of Quan? Pred Hunter? But isn't Pred's on knockdown though so you can escape by wake-up?

It's clear noone has pseudo unblockables as easy to set up as Quan, but if Hunter does manage to make the opponent respect the hard to blockables, which he can, they're just has hard to block as Quan's are. We just don't get why people are only pissed at Quan's and noone else's? If it's just how easy it is to setup people aren't saying it very clearly.

 

[ID_Moi_LSac]

What are you on? I said he can definitely be armored out of it by most of the cast and he can maybe be poked out of the setups with charged B2. The reason I said maybe is cause I'm sure I saw a video about it but I haven't bother to lab it myself properly yet. If you know a guaranteed setup then let me know, but as far as I'm aware none have been found yet.

Also yes, I have labbed the charged B2 setups a bit, enough to know that it only works if the low bat hits first and then the overhead pops up, otherwise Quan is still in the recovery of charged B2 when the opponent hits the ground cause the low bat doesn't launch as high. So IF any setups are found, as long as you learn how to fuzzy guard it there shouldn't really be any issues. It's nowhere near as useful as the more practical shit everyone has already found.