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MKX Netplay - What Can NRS Add To Improve Online Functionality?

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BillStickers

BillStickers

Do not touch me again.
Sutter Pain said:
Slightly better then injustice would be a huge blow up for a big game like MKX. It needs to be better then KI and there is no reason it can't be given the resources NRS should have over Double Helix.
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What we definitely know 100% about KI is that it uses a rollback netcode. I've also heard 2 rumors about KI netcode that are not necessarily mutually exclusive:
  1. Microsoft gave Double Helix a dedicated team of developers to do the netcode. IMO this is a plausible rumor considering that KI is console exclusive and Microsoft clearly wanted it to do well. Microsoft undoubtably would have some very bright and talented engineers that can optimize network performance better than a dev house could.

  2. KI netcode has privileged access to XBOne's network stack, so they're able to do things that other devs aren't allowed to do. It's also possible given the large memory requirements of rollback that KI also has privileged access to memory (whether it be frequency or space limitations).
Given one or both of those situations, it's possible that we may *never* see netcode that's superior to KI's. IMO the most damning thing for MKX will be the fact that it's cross-platform; because of that, they lose dozens of opportunities to optimize in ways that may have been quick wins for KI's devs.
 
Vagrant

Vagrant

Noob
Immortal said:
I hope so too.

Thou people tend to forget MK games never was made with competitive scene as priority. I'm pretty sure that's the case with MK X too.

And ti be completely honest SF4 netcode isn't that great (it's not rollback based), nowhere near KI level.
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They specifically said MK9 was made with tournament players in mind and I would say it's a no brainer that the same applies to MKX.

SF4 netcode isn't rollback but it's still competent enough imo.
 
Immortal

Immortal

Blind justice....
Vagrant said:
They specifically said MK9 was made with tournament players in mind and I would say it's a no brainer that the same applies to MKX.

SF4 netcode isn't rollback but it's still competent enough imo.
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You don't make a game with quite long story mode for competitive players mostly. :) Boon said dozen of times which is obvious anyway - MK games sells in millions of copys, 95% of those goes to casuals. So it's obvious whats their target group / business model is. Numbers speak.
 
Sutter Pain

Sutter Pain

Your mothers main.
Immortal said:
To be honest you have no clue what resources NRS has or not (and what's more important allocation of it), you're just assuming big here, nothing more.

KI isn't the pinnacle of netcode it just uses the best method (rollback) of dealing with some latency. There is no better way atm, so yea you can expect at best something similar.

There is one big BUT, MK X was made based on modified UE 3 in all my years of working as a programmer i never, ever seen a rollback system implemented successfully in UE based game. MK 9 didn't have it, Injustice didn't have it, many others didn't have it. It's only fair to assume that MK X won't have it either. You don't have to posses knowledge about programming to see common logic here.

Sure, you can expect "better" overall from them, so do i. I just don't expect them to do better then DH with KI or any other game using rollback system, coz that for like 99% won't happen. That is all.
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You are right neither of us know what the allocation of NRS's resources are but in my opinon some of them should be focused on making its netcode on par with its competitors.

Why are you bringing up your programming experience if it is common logic that the implementation of a rollback system can't be added successfully to a UE game?
 
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Sutter Pain

Sutter Pain

Your mothers main.
BillStickers said:
What we definitely know 100% about KI is that it uses a rollback netcode. I've also heard 2 rumors about KI netcode that are not necessarily mutually exclusive:
  1. Microsoft gave Double Helix a dedicated team of developers to do the netcode. IMO this is a plausible rumor considering that KI is console exclusive and Microsoft clearly wanted it to do well. Microsoft undoubtably would have some very bright and talented engineers that can optimize network performance better than a dev house could.

  2. KI netcode has privileged access to XBOne's network stack, so they're able to do things that other devs aren't allowed to do. It's also possible given the large memory requirements of rollback that KI also has privileged access to memory (whether it be frequency or space limitations).
Given one or both of those situations, it's possible that we may *never* see netcode that's superior to KI's. IMO the most damning thing for MKX will be the fact that it's cross-platform; because of that, they lose dozens of opportunities to optimize in ways that may have been quick wins for KI's devs.
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This is some very good points and are defiantly plausible reasons why the netcode is so good but i am just pleb wtf do I know :D
 
Sutter Pain

Sutter Pain

Your mothers main.
I will dial back my expectations by a fair amount and say that I will be over the moon if MKX plays slightly better then SF4's netcode. Hopefully that will not warrant me being brought down to earth and have to be taught a physics lesson. :D

In all seriousness I am just super hype for MKX and really want the netcode to be good and on par with other games i am playing waiting for MKX to drop.
 
d3v

d3v

SRK
BillStickers said:
What we definitely know 100% about KI is that it uses a rollback netcode. I've also heard 2 rumors about KI netcode that are not necessarily mutually exclusive:
  1. Microsoft gave Double Helix a dedicated team of developers to do the netcode. IMO this is a plausible rumor considering that KI is console exclusive and Microsoft clearly wanted it to do well. Microsoft undoubtably would have some very bright and talented engineers that can optimize network performance better than a dev house could.

  2. KI netcode has privileged access to XBOne's network stack, so they're able to do things that other devs aren't allowed to do. It's also possible given the large memory requirements of rollback that KI also has privileged access to memory (whether it be frequency or space limitations).
Given one or both of those situations, it's possible that we may *never* see netcode that's superior to KI's. IMO the most damning thing for MKX will be the fact that it's cross-platform; because of that, they lose dozens of opportunities to optimize in ways that may have been quick wins for KI's devs.
Click to expand...
Actually, we do know a bit about about how KI's netcode was developed, namely that the creator of GGPO (SRK/Evo founder Tom Cannon) was involved.
 
imblackjames

imblackjames

Ive seen the leprechaun
I liked almost of the netplay features in injustice except for survival mode. If they add a "tournament mode" online where fatalities are turned off and theres a spectaror mode id be happy with that
 
BanTheTesters

BanTheTesters

“My AGENT is tougher than you...”
Moderator
THTB said:
I'm not saying this to get under any of the devs' skin, but it's frustrating to want to play the game online because you often are unable to play offline or have no one to play with...but then online just operates so poorly that things that you have practiced go to waste simply because things become harder to react to.

@colt
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CrimsonShadow

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Immortal said:
There is one big BUT, MK X was made based on modified UE 3 in all my years of working as a programmer i never, ever seen a rollback system implemented successfully in UE based game. MK 9 didn't have it, Injustice didn't have it, many others didn't have it. It's only fair to assume that MK X won't have it either. You don't have to posses knowledge about programming to see common logic here.
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But how many top-tier fighting games use UE in the first place? Very few. Imo that assumption is based on an extremely limited set of data.

NRS isn't working off the stock UE -- their version of the engine is highly customized by their own devs. So presumably, there could be other things that are particular to their fighting game engine as well.
 
Immortal

Immortal

Blind justice....
CrimsonShadow said:
But how many top-tier fighting games use UE in the first place? Very few. Imo that assumption is based on an extremely limited set of data.
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This assumption is base on good technical knowledge abut UE 3 and 4. While it is possible to do, roll back system require you to build the game core around it. Modifying UE to that level would be extremely resource and time consuming and never been done till this day.

NRS isn't working off the stock UE -- their version of the engine is highly customized by their own devs. So presumably, there could be other things that are particular to their fighting game engine as well.
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Already said that several times. None of their custom version of UE had rollback system and it was available in the time when they did Injustice. Also having rollback system would be a nice marketing point and they didn't say anything about it.

Don't get me wrong i'm hoping for good netcode, like most here. I'm just skeptical about rollback system being in MK X, that is all. But if im prove wrong i willbe very happy to apologize for having doubts about it.
 
Scoot Magee

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
BillStickers said:
You've actually piqued my interest in creating a client-server model for a fighting game as an experiment to see how it performs against lockstep p2p. While you're right about the benefits of having a direct connection vs. a server, there are a lot of benefits to client-server that could potentially make for a smoother gaming experience, especially when it comes to 1) bandwidth optimization and 2) quality of service.

I also have to wonder how much of a difference a third node makes in practice once you consider the average gamer's internet connection. Would two consoles peering on a shitty Tier 3 connection really be faster than two nodes communicating with a beefed-up server on an enterprise-class Tier 1 or 2 network?
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If I'm correct here than it;s already been done with kaillera. Players join a server to connect to each other and I believe the info would hit the server then the player. They then came out with Kaillera p2p which totally outperformed it.
 
Scoot Magee

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
Immortal said:
I hope so too.

Thou people tend to forget MK games never was made with competitive scene as priority. I'm pretty sure that's the case with MK X too.

And ti be completely honest SF4 netcode isn't that great (it's not rollback based), nowhere near KI level.
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But is way better than the netcode in the recent NRS games. I still remember the community being very pissed off when we found out SF4 didn't have rollback but at least it's mostly playable at a reasonable distance. I feel that even at a short distance Injustice and MK9 had a lot more delay than they should have had.

Vagrant said:
They specifically said MK9 was made with tournament players in mind and I would say it's a no brainer that the same applies to MKX.

SF4 netcode isn't rollback but it's still competent enough imo.
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They also said on the record that MK9's netcode will be the best and the new standard for fighting games (or something along those lines)
 
aj1701

aj1701

Noob
Sutter Pain said:
You are right neither of us know what the allocation of NRS's resources are but in my opinon some of them should be focused on making its netcode on par with its competitors.

Why are you bringing up your programming experience if it is common logic that the implementation of a rollback system can't be added successfully to a UE game?
Click to expand...
You act as if the people working on story mode could also work on the netcode. If the story mode is similar to mk9s there might be very little that needs to be done except scripting the cinematic portions. The people doing that might have no clue how to address netcode.
 
Sutter Pain

Sutter Pain

Your mothers main.
aj1701 said:
You act as if the people working on story mode could also work on the netcode. If the story mode is similar to mk9s there might be very little that needs to be done except scripting the cinematic portions. The people doing that might have no clue how to address netcode.
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Uhm I never hinted at anything of the sort and specifically stated I have no I idea how NRS allocates their resources.
 
T

trufenix

bye felicia
The fact that we really haven't heard dick about the online feature set makes me hope maybe they still have some surprises (like rollback) in store. The fact that they casually dropped spectator mode and STILL haven't said anything else or even really confirmed it is a cockpunch, but at least its a hope-laden cockpunch.
 
NoobHunter420

NoobHunter420

Scrub God Lord
FCP/EMP SCAR said:


I would really like it if they took some ideas from how the XRD lobbies are structured, 8 players to a lobby with the ability to either find up to 4 stations to play in 1 lobby, or all 8 could cram one setup and take turns while spectating matches, if u choose to solely spectate u could do that too, and ur turn would be skipped automatically.

What I don't like about king of the hill in MK9 is you really didn't have the option to chat it up if u didn't have a mic, nor could u select to automatically have ur turn skipped, same with injustice, these options are must have, for casual matches, and online tournament matches alike, no one wants to have to beat up a none moving player just to get to an active player, too much of a hassle, also in XRD it has an automatic 10 sec timer that triggers in the lobby if a player fails to start up a match because of AFK, that is also a big help.
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I really hate that approach.
I just want to play players around like skill level one after the other.
I like how KI just keeps throwing you new opponents with little waiting time.
 
NoobHunter420

NoobHunter420

Scrub God Lord
Immortal said:
You don't make a game with quite long story mode for competitive players mostly. :) Boon said dozen of times which is obvious anyway - MK games sells in millions of copys, 95% of those goes to casuals. So it's obvious whats their target group / business model is. Numbers speak.
Click to expand...
That does not mean they don't care about the competitive scene.
They have stated multiple times that they take the competitive scene into consideration when developing their games.
 
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