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Can we get a consensus on Character/Variation Lock rules?

How should counterpicking be handled?

  • Winner can change variation if loser changes character, W. picks variation before L. picks variation

    Votes: 77 27.8%
  • Winner can change variation if loser changes character, W. picks variation before L. pick char.

    Votes: 20 7.2%
  • Winner is not variation locked if loser changes variation and/or character.

    Votes: 36 13.0%
  • Winner is character/variation locked no matter what loser does.

    Votes: 144 52.0%

  • Total voters
    277
  • Poll closed .
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Compbros

Man of Tomorrow
What are the rules in SF4? Can the winner change ultra? This is pretty similar to the analogy in your post.

Yes, the winner can if the loser changes character I believe but it's not the same. Ultra's are a one or two time tool that is earned through taking damage as opposed to changing several aspects of a characters moveset.
 

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
I don't see the point between the winner getting to change variation first. Why would they change a variation without seeing which character the other player has picked? The loser could then just pick the same character and variation if it has a good MU against the winners choice and the winner has successfully counter-picked himself.

Just do character and variation lock for winner. They already have the first game advantage, so change counter pick next game if needs be.
 

SneakyTortoise

Official Master of Salt
It should just be up to each TO on what they think fits best for the first few months, as long as they advertise these rules and make it clear what they are.

I do think the simplest, and possibly best solution is to have the winner locked to the variation, Jim made a good point about how it's defending the tool set you won with. This would lead to the least confusion in my opinion and we could see how it plays out and make adjustments as it goes.
 

Atriox

Here... I am a god!
No, it's different. Now there are two things to use that you can matchup against. Instead of just a character's tools against another character's tools it is character's A tools against character's C tools.

So, hypothetically, let's say you have someone picking Scorpion's A variation and wins. The opponent now picks Quan Chi, whom is good against all of Scorpions variation's regardless of what he picks, then you have them pick variation B which is the best choice for Scorpion A. Now, let's take it further and say Scorpion can change variation and that C is the best against Quan Chi regardless of Quan's variation. Even if it's still a bad matchup it gives the Scorpion player a better chance instead of having to deal with a character and variation counterpick.
I get your point, but I'm still for character and variation lock. Imo nothing changes. Even if the winner is allowed to change variation, it still ends on a counter pick on one end.
 

Compbros

Man of Tomorrow
It should just be up to each TO on what they think fits best for the first few months, as long as they advertise these rules and make it clear what they are.

I do think the simplest, and possibly best solution is to have the winner locked to the variation, Jim made a good point about how it's defending the tool set you won with. This would lead to the least confusion in my opinion and we could see how it plays out and make adjustments as it goes.

We've had things like this before where players still went into matches not fully knowing the rules. If there's a bunch of different rules per tournament then players may end up getting confused. An example of this is Injustice and stage counterpicking, there were a handful of tournaments that did it differently and players would use the method of a previous tournament or something.


I don't see the point between the winner getting to change variation first. Why would they change a variation without seeing which character the other player has picked? The loser could then just pick the same character and variation if it has a good MU against the winners choice and the winner has successfully counter-picked himself.

Just do character and variation lock for winner. They already have the first game advantage, so change counter pick next game if needs be.

If this is for me it's not the situation I presented. Mine was L.char-> W.var -> L.var.


I get your point, but I'm still for character and variation lock. Imo nothing changes. Even if the winner is allowed to change variation, it still ends on a counter pick on one end.

Yes, it's still a counterpick but it's not a double counterpick which is what character/variation lock has the potential to be. Winner changing variation allows for some amount of limiting an unfavorable matchup.
 
Best tournament rule would be Winner Keeps same Character but can change variation if the opponent changes hes character, if not and the opponent only changes variation or stays the same winner must stay locked. Loosers options: can pick a new character, variation and new level.
 
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SneakyTortoise

Official Master of Salt
We've had things like this before where players still went into matches not fully knowing the rules. If there's a bunch of different rules per tournament then players may end up getting confused. An example of this is Injustice and stage counterpicking, there were a handful of tournaments that did it differently and players would use the method of a previous tournament or something.
I know, I do remember the injustice stage debacle, but I do think that falls slightly on the TO not deciding on a rule and not making sure the competitors knew the rules for that tournament. I think SCR did a good job of making the rules clear, if you make sure everyone knows what the rules are at the tournament, there's no justification for people not knowing, even if tournaments do have different rules.
 

Malarkey

"What's that? Something like underground?"
The safest choice would be to keep the winner locked to both variation and character. With the ability to hidden variation select (which I believe has been confirmed, I'll have to check that later) it would become a silly guessing game of which variation the winner will select, negating the entire purpose of the lower being able to change character/variation.

Could you imagine choosing a zoning variation and losing to a counter zoning variation, then switching to a rush down variation of your character, only to have the opponent guess that you would do that and hidden select an anti rush down variation? It's pointless and could lead to a double counter pick against the LOSER.

I'll admit that we aren't fully sure how different each variation will be, and we could switch to a system of no variation lock at a later time. But let's go on the side of caution, and prevent the loser from potentially getting counter-picked. Once we run a few majors we will better understand the weight that variations have in MKX.

Edit: I didn't even bring up the stage selecting debacle at the beginning of IGAU. I don't think the argument of prior games apply, because stages, characters, variations, etc are different from game to game. We have to make the decision based on our game, and the goal of the developers.
 

Onilordasmodeus

My GT: UncappedWheel82
If the loser changes character winner change ultra but must pick his ultra first iirc
IDK. I could get behind variation change if the looser changes character, and the winner HAS to choose first. As long as the winner doesn't get a chance to counter pick then I think everything can be fine.
 

Onilordasmodeus

My GT: UncappedWheel82
Yes, the winner can if the loser changes character I believe but it's not the same. Ultra's are a one or two time tool that is earned through taking damage as opposed to changing several aspects of a characters moveset.
I didn't say they were the same, I said they were "pretty similar", but that is besides the point.

Reptile is the perfect example of why variation lock should be considered. His Noxious variation could be pretty powerful, same with his speed boost variation, and it could be pretty unfair to switch up variations like that on your opponent in a counter picking fashion.

That being said, if the winner HAS to choose first, it gives the looser a chance switch up styles and know what they are getting into.
 

Saint Op Omen

Savagely beating his super-ego with his id...
Lol they do this in Yugioh tourneys, you sign up with your full decklist and can't change a thing about it, not even a side deck card.
Yeah there are also some where... I guess it would be like you you have to keep your character but can change variations whenever but once you change you can't go back to the other one for the remainder of the event...
I mean it won't happen but I would be interested in watching at least one tournament like this...
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Best tournament rule would be Winner Keeps same Character but can change variation if the opponent changes hes character, if not and the opponent only changes variation or stays the same winner must stay locked. Loosers options: can pick a new character, variation and new level.
My guess is no.

On topic: Loser changes variation and character or stage, winner blind picks variation.
Seriously this is easily the best option. What is the point of variations if the rules end up being "absolute variation lock"?? Might as well not have them at all.
 
We dnt know if variations vastly change characters or not (only the testers have an idea of this), so I say we just do a community vote if it is really that much of an issue. @haketh has good knowledge of past games that have had variations before so he can give good input on that and we can go from there. If we are going to settle this, let us do it NOW
 

Compbros

Man of Tomorrow
I didn't say they were the same, I said they were "pretty similar", but that is besides the point.

Reptile is the perfect example of why variation lock should be considered. His Noxious variation could be pretty powerful, same with his speed boost variation, and it could be pretty unfair to switch up variations like that on your opponent in a counter picking fashion.

That being said, if the winner HAS to choose first, it gives the looser a chance switch up styles and know what they are getting into.

They're not pretty similar though, variations can change the way a character fundamentally plays as specials, normals, and strings can be affected. Ultra's change one aspect and it's not usable throughout the entire match unless certain conditions are met.


The variation switch would only be for the loser character switching though, is it more unfair to have the winner be double counter picked or to just be counter picked?
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
It's been done several times and we still don't have any clue as to what we're gonna do when the game comes out. Once we get some type of idea of how we're handling this then they can stop, until then it should be talked about because it's a major aspect of tournament play.
I though we settled this a few months back and i tough it was set in stone already:

Blind picks if both parts desires to do so.
Loser can pick another variation - Winner stays variation locked
Losers switches characters - Winner is still character locked but he can switch variations, and winner has to pick variation first.

which is what you've suggested on the OP, i though 80% of TYM agreed on these already.

Those who says otherwise i dunno what they're thinking.
 
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