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Can we get a consensus on Character/Variation Lock rules?

How should counterpicking be handled?

  • Winner can change variation if loser changes character, W. picks variation before L. picks variation

    Votes: 77 27.8%

  • Winner can change variation if loser changes character, W. picks variation before L. pick char.

    Votes: 20 7.2%

  • Winner is not variation locked if loser changes variation and/or character.

    Votes: 36 13.0%

  • Winner is character/variation locked no matter what loser does.

    Votes: 144 52.0%
  • Total voters
    277
  • Poll closed .
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Compbros

Compbros

Man of Tomorrow
MKX is 6 weeks away and at some point this should be hashed out by the community. I've seen posts of "just wait until the game is out to decide" but why? What could we possibly learn about variations by playing the game that we don't already know? They change, whether minutely or drastically, the way a character functions and plays. There is no need to wait to at least get some ideas on what to do for tournaments. With that said, this is my idea.


If loser sticks with character then winner is character/variation locked even if loser changes their variation. If loser changes character then the winner can change their variation and the picking is as such:

Loser -> picks character, winner -> picks variation, loser -> picks variation.




Edit:


Tournaments running Full Lock (character and variation):

Toryuken - https://torontotoptiers.yapsody.com/event/index/9230/toryuken-4-stronghold


Tournaments running Variation Unlock on character switch:
Combo Breaker - http://combobreaker.org/


Unknown

Northwest Majors - http://northwestmajors.com/

Socal Regionals - http://www.socalregionals.com/

Texas Showdown - https://txshowdown.com/

Common Wealth - http://tcwva.com/

CEO - http://ceogaming.org/

EVO - http://evo.shoryuken.com/

Summer Jam - http://bigegaming.com/
 
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Compbros

Compbros

Man of Tomorrow
Eternal Darkseid said:
Why should the winner be allowed to change variations? The variations are like different characters themselves, I don't see how that would be fair.
Click to expand...

Allowing the loser to pick a character and variation that matches well against the locked character/variation from the winner seems off to me. The loser knowing the winner is character locked but not variation locked limits how much of a better matchup they can have.


Edit:
FOREVER KING said:
We won't know the perfect method until we play the game ourselves, or run tournaments using different methods and see which is the best
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No but we can get ideas of what to try instead of just a wait and see approach. We did that with Injustice and interactibles and the community just kind of accepted the interactibles, I'd rather we don't just accept the first thing that's tried because we waited.
 
TopTierHarley

TopTierHarley

Kytinn King
Many other games like Melty Blood and Arcana Heart already have a system like this in place. I see no reason as to not follow suit. If loser decides to change variation then winner is locked in both character and variation. If loser changes character winner can change variation. I don't see why we have to be different when fighting games have already had a system in place that involve variations.

I'm sure @haketh could explain more, if he feels so for the 100th time.
 
Compbros

Compbros

Man of Tomorrow
TopTierHarley said:
Many other games like Melty Blood and Arcana Heart already have a system like this in place. I see no reason as to not follow suit. If loser decides to change variation then winner is locked in both character and variation. If loser changes character winner can change variation. I don't see why we have to be different when fighting games have already had a system in place that involve variations.

I'm sure @haketh could explain more, if he feels so for the 100th time.
Click to expand...

Because MKX is not Melty or AH. I know some of AH from playing it and every character has access to every "variation", it's not quite the same thing.



Edit: Also, I don't think there will be a perfect method King as no option presented is without it's problems.
 
Atriox

Atriox

Here... I am a god!
Compbros said:
Allowing the loser to pick a character and variation that matches well against the locked character/variation from the winner seems off to me. The loser knowing the winner is character locked but not variation locked limits how much of a better matchup they can have.
Click to expand...
But that's how it's always been. It was counter picking then and it's gonna be counter picking for MKX. I just don't get why now all of a sudden counter picking should be prevented. To me, that's like if in MK9 the winner was allowed to change character, doesn't make sense to me.
 
TopTierHarley

TopTierHarley

Kytinn King
Compbros said:
Because MKX is not Melty or AH. I know some of AH from playing it and every character has access to every "variation", it's not quite the same thing.



Edit: Also, I don't think there will be a perfect method King as no option presented is without it's problems.
Click to expand...
No I am agreeing with you on how character picks should go. I'm just saying that there is already precedence with games like those, so I don't understand why people are saying lock for everything.

What would be the point of variations then? Why would I choose a different variation after I lost in the counterpick, when I can just counterpick with another character? Doing the method of lock everything for winner will just null variations in the end.
 
ForeverKing

ForeverKing

Patreon.com/MK_ForeverKing
GGA Dizzy said:
One things for sure...dont let "Forever King of Random Select" choose the character locking rules :DOGE
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lol if it were up to me I would probably say loser gets to change their variation and/or character, winner only gets to change their variation. But if winner decides to change their variation they have to do it FIRST before the loser decides if they want to change their variation/character
 
Compbros

Compbros

Man of Tomorrow
Eternal Darkseid said:
But that's how it's always been. It was counter picking then and it's gonna be counter picking for MKX. I just don't get why now all of a sudden counter picking should be prevented. To me, that's like if in MK9 the winner was allowed to change character, doesn't make sense to me.
Click to expand...

No, it's different. Now there are two things to use that you can matchup against. Instead of just a character's tools against another character's tools it is character's A tools against character's C tools.

So, hypothetically, let's say you have someone picking Scorpion's A variation and wins. The opponent now picks Quan Chi, whom is good against all of Scorpions variation's regardless of what he picks, then you have them pick variation B which is the best choice for Scorpion A. Now, let's take it further and say Scorpion can change variation and that C is the best against Quan Chi regardless of Quan's variation. Even if it's still a bad matchup it gives the Scorpion player a better chance instead of having to deal with a character and variation counterpick.
 
Onilordasmodeus

Onilordasmodeus

My GT: UncappedWheel82
Compbros said:
No, it's different. Now there are two things to use that you can matchup against. Instead of just a character's tools against another character's tools it is character's A tools against character's C tools.

So, hypothetically, let's say you have someone picking Scorpion's A variation and wins. The opponent now picks Quan Chi, whom is good against all of Scorpions variation's regardless of what he picks, then you have them pick variation B which is the best choice for Scorpion A. Now, let's take it further and say Scorpion can change variation and that C is the best against Quan Chi regardless of Quan's variation. Even if it's still a bad matchup it gives the Scorpion player a better chance instead of having to deal with a character and variation counterpick.
Click to expand...
What are the rules in SF4? Can the winner change ultra? This is pretty similar to the analogy in your post.
 
Compbros

Compbros

Man of Tomorrow
Evil Eddy Wang said:
Not this again, can we start merging these threads? They talk about the same thing.
Click to expand...

It's been done several times and we still don't have any clue as to what we're gonna do when the game comes out. Once we get some type of idea of how we're handling this then they can stop, until then it should be talked about because it's a major aspect of tournament play.
 
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