STOP Withholding Tech

Doombawkz said:

Maybe its just a difference in perspective, but tech monsters, lend me your energy on this one.

For us, the ones who develop tech as the predominant thing we do, its an art. We don't just throw out whatever we make. Tech is a fine marbled meat, just waiting to be cooked and cut, to be trimmed and spiced, and we don't like sending anything out until it is as refined and beautiful and delicious as our communities deserve.

We are not the consumers, we are the producers. We take pride in our parts, and it takes us much longer to prepare the tech than it is for the other side to take benefit. We throw out promising tech, beautiful filet of potential, because we realize it isn't fit to eat. All of that time we invested chasing a dream, preparing it, nurturing our tech baby, and it all goes to waste in a moment. Its like a fleeting dream, once we awaken we have not to show for our works. We get no thanks for a nice try, we go about looking for the next meal to sustain our cultures.

Its easy to say not to withhold tech, but that's like telling an artist to sell every draft and picture he does. That's telling the author to cheapen his words so the consumer doesn't have to wait. We don't make tech just to make tech, we do it to make a difference. It's not something you can understand from the other side of the kitchen counter, but we spend hours, days, sometimes months working on just a single piece of tech for you all to enjoy. Sometimes we don't withhold tech for the sake of withholding it, we do so because we don't want to provide anything less than our best. Sometimes we care more about ensuring you guys get something you can enjoy to the fullest than we do that you guys have just "something". It isn't "something" to us, and you guys shouldn't settle for that either. We think you deserve better, and we strive to provide you with the best.

If you want more tech, you're welcome to come into the kitchen and prepare it yourself. Then you can throw whatever burnt toast you want onto a plate and serve it up as tech. You can complain that the steak isn't coming fast enough, or you can make the steak. Just please be more understanding that not everyone who holds the plate just a moment longer isn't out to spite you, or starve you so they can benefit... Sometimes they just know you'd like your steak medium-well, and medium simply won't do.

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Youphemism said:

The hyperbole is real

But for realsies, I get what you're saying. As a fellow tech monster I knew straight from the start I'd have to look into every little detail before posting my first tech thread. Hell I even put effort into making the thread for the tech.

I mean just look at this sexy beast: http://testyourmight.com/threads/how-to-make-amazonian-uppercut-10x-more-godlike-by-youphemism.41774/

And some Wonder Women still use it to this day.

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Cerebru said:

dot dot dot ... dot .... dot dot dot dot dot ... dot dot .... lots of dots ... more dots ... dots dots dots ...

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RM Indecisive said:

I remember your sweep tech. So pointless but so awesome. . I found a way to do it in a combo with an interactable. It does the same amount of damage as the normal verison does. But doing with Sweep is just so much cooler. The reason i don't post that is cause its pointless. If i posted people would be like LolWut and move on. Although doombawkz is crazy he made some good points. Even though i didn't read everything he wrote. . You cannot force people to release tech. If they do then they do. If they don't want to for whatever reason then not much you can do. It doesn't really matter. If people ask me about a setup or something that i do with shazam i will tell them. Then i will tell them how to get out of it. A lot of it has to do with just asking the person you are playing against. im sure plenty of people will tell you.

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1man3letters said:

dude your ego on this matter is far bigger than the effort i want to put in to get you to see anyones point of view but your own.
your suggesting things i said which i clearly did not and then give me a counter point to something i didnt even say, ill leave you to your business

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Doombawkz said:

I'm not crazy, also I explained my thing about N. Shifting to you before didn't I?


I'm a hound of hell when it comes to tech. If your posts lack meat, then I'll gnaw at the bones until they are dust in the wind and meal in my jowls. If you can't bring the substance, then get out of the kitchen and bring me someone who can.

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RM Indecisive said:

Ya you did. I had no idea what you were talking about and just accepted it.

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Doombawkz said:

I mean I told you WHY I couldn't explain it, remember?

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Doombawkz said:

I'm not crazy, also I explained my thing about N. Shifting to you before didn't I?


I'm a hound of hell when it comes to tech. If your posts lack meat, then I'll gnaw at the bones until they are dust in the wind and meal in my jowls. If you can't bring the substance, then get out of the kitchen and bring me someone who can.

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Doombawkz said:

I'm going to step in as a resident tech monster. This is one discussion I actually do fit within.

Withholding tech is a poor man's act to gain footing. Of this, I can agree... However, not all tech is fit to show.
I made the Bane Character Council for that specific reason. I could post tech, endless and boundless in its degree, to these forums...
Yet I have made few posts of such things, and thats because posting bad information or bad tech is even worse than posting nothing at all.

Tech should be approved in its quality, simply posted because not doing so carries a bad stigma is the wrong way to go about it.


By those means, I would advise almost the opposite. If your tech doesn't bring something new or important to the character, then you should withhold it. No one needs to see the 18th way Flash's f.3 crosses up in the same situation. As @GGA Max would often say when I showed him my tech "Why would I use this when this other thing already exists?". Thats how most people should think. Tech should be something that opens a new avenue for your character, not simply and constantly reinvent the same avenue at no actual gain.

Likewise, sometimes it does but its nowhere near consistent enough to be used in an actual match. Why would that need to be posted? It takes up space and looks cool, but it serves no purpose. It levels down the community because it creates a false image of character capability when the player can't ever possibly foot the bill. You can't simply look at the positives of good tech and blanket all tech under that, there is also the fair share of bad tech that would come flooding out if everyone were to post everything.

I'm all for not withholding GOOD tech, tech that actually innovates, however I'm all for people holding back on their "tech" combo videos.
Maybe more people should make councils and talk tech within them, that'll bring up the QUALITY rather than the QUANTITY.
Thats what really matters.

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JDM said:

Man hell naw. If I figure out some broken shit I'm not revealing it until I use it in tournament.

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MAPUSA said:

who like to read guides from weak players?

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Sami said:

This is so very disappointing to read. It assumes that because a certain group of people cannot make X tech "work" then noboby else can and that nothing good can come from bad tech.

Here's some counter examples: Raven players used to end combos with f22u1 to get a knockdown that seemingly spaced the opponent at the perfect distance for an ambigious cross-up. This tech was actually terrible as it turns out there were plenty of ways of escaping it. However, as a result of this bad tech being posted a number of players (myself included) started exploring options to make the concept work. In the end we found that rather than ending in f22u1 you could end with a normal into regular lift - this provided a hard KD and depending on the normal and jump-in attack used you had a fully controllable ambigious cross-up.

Raven doing an instant jump 1/2 for a very unsafe 50/50 was bad tech as the blocked version could be punished easily. It got turned into better tech when used on certain stages as she could use interactables to escape or punish the punish. The existance of this potential 50/50 also inspired people to try and find ways of setting it up and exploiting it, each person building off someone else's ideas. Was it successful? No, but it did provoke good discussion and helped inspired some other things like making use of Raven's frame advantage of B3 in the corner which wasn't possible mid-screen (it may have been F3 - my memory is hazy now).

Hell, my own tech for jumping in on Scorpion after knocking him down (an option select that guaranteed a jump-in that either resulted in safety or a full combo regardless of any option Scorpion did) was inspired by some god-awful Scorpion tech abusing hit small hitbox during teleport to escape something. The Scorpion tech didn't work that well but the mention of his smaller hitbox during that move gave me the idea of using it to find tech that worked against the character and I was 100% successful. If this bad tech was kept behind locked doors then this would not have happened. The bad tech had an even bigger impact - I was able to fully understand how/when/why jump-in attacks would and wouldn't cancel into other moves when the player hits the ground.

Good tech can and is found from bad tech. The community is a very good judge of what works and what doesn't and new ideas can come from anywhere. I really, REALLY hope this "tech council" idea doesn't cross over into MKX. It's a terrible elitist system that might slightly improve the signal-noise ratio but dramatically cuts down on the number of people who might be inspired by the stuff that doesn't work. From your post it - especially the part about Max - it seems your attitude is focused on only posting things that you think non-tech finders might find useful rather than trying to inspire more people to be creative and try new things.

Finally, there is more to tech than what is 100% reliable in a tournament setting - some people just get a kick out of trying to break the game for the hell of it while making an awesome combo video in the process. One of my favourites from Tony-T showing a piece of Scorpion reset tech on a specific stage...

Useful? Nope. Video hype as hell? Yep.

To end with a pretentious quote: "Just because something doesn't do what you planned it to do doesn't mean it's useless." - Thomas Edison

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RM AtK! said:

lol are you darthvado

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Sami said:

This is so very disappointing to read. It assumes that because a certain group of people cannot make X tech "work" then noboby else can and that nothing good can come from bad tech.

When that group of people is the top representatives, tech monsters, and other from the lab, then yeah if we can't make it work, even in a controlled setting, it probably isn't a working tech. Also no one said nothing good comes from bad tech, but the cons massively outweight the pros if there is no filter whatsoever.

Here's some counter examples: Raven players used to end combos with f22u1 to get a knockdown that seemingly spaced the opponent at the perfect distance for an ambigious cross-up. This tech was actually terrible as it turns out there were plenty of ways of escaping it. However, as a result of this bad tech being posted a number of players (myself included) started exploring options to make the concept work. In the end we found that rather than ending in f22u1 you could end with a normal into regular lift - this provided a hard KD and depending on the normal and jump-in attack used you had a fully controllable ambigious cross-up.

This applies to a comment I made in someone elses' post. "when someone posts a tech, we go in and analyze it and ask questions about it. We test it ourselves, and we try to optimize it or at the very least, nip it in the bud if its a dead-end and try to get the person going in the right direction.". The tech is bad, so we stop people from looking for that option and insist instead that another option might be better or available. In your example, it's Raven's f.22u1. You realized it didn't work, nipped it, and moved in the "right direction" which is force lift. We aren't faceless cults that pass judgement, we are scientists looking to make things as good as they can be.

Raven doing an instant jump 1/2 for a very unsafe 50/50 was bad tech as the blocked version could be punished easily. It got turned into better tech when used on certain stages as she could use interactables to escape or punish the punish. The existance of this potential 50/50 also inspired people to try and find ways of setting it up and exploiting it, each person building off someone else's ideas. Was it successful? No, but it did provoke good discussion and helped inspired some other things like making use of Raven's frame advantage of B3 in the corner which wasn't possible mid-screen (it may have been F3 - my memory is hazy now).

See above. We don't deny people their rights to post tech, but when they do we can go in and see if the tech works or not. You took some bad tech, nipped it, and turned it into good tech. Good job. Although that being said it doesn't sound like "bad tech" so much as "unoptimized tech". "Bad tech" is tech that, literally, doesn't work, exists in a superior form, or can't be performed. We don't grade things, it either works or it doesn't.

Hell, my own tech for jumping in on Scorpion after knocking him down (an option select that guaranteed a jump-in that either resulted in safety or a full combo regardless of any option Scorpion did) was inspired by some god-awful Scorpion tech abusing hit small hitbox during teleport to escape something. The Scorpion tech didn't work that well but the mention of his smaller hitbox during that move gave me the idea of using it to find tech that worked against the character and I was 100% successful. If this bad tech was kept behind locked doors then this would not have happened. The bad tech had an even bigger impact - I was able to fully understand how/when/why jump-in attacks would and wouldn't cancel into other moves when the player hits the ground.

For this example, I'll make a note that what you just presented isn't "bad tech". "Bad tech" isn't the same as unoptimized tech. There is a line between them. One of them can be performed, and while they might not have a strong showing or fantastic result, that doesn't make the idea itself bad. Its only bad if, after exhausting every option, it still does not pose itself as a possible alternative. Inspirations are great, but that doesn't make the material used any better. I can be inspired after watching a great deal of things happen, both good and bad. The end product might be good, but that doesn't mean the beginning product was better than it was. Tech is only as good as you make it.

Good tech can and is found from bad tech. The community is a very good judge of what works and what doesn't and new ideas can come from anywhere. I really, REALLY hope this "tech council" idea doesn't cross over into MKX. It's a terrible elitist system that might slightly improve the signal-noise ratio but dramatically cuts down on the number of people who might be inspired by the stuff that doesn't work. From your post it - especially the part about Max - it seems your attitude is focused on only posting things that you think non-tech finders might find useful rather than trying to inspire more people to be creative and try new things.

How is it elitist? Its an option people can choose to either partake in or disregard. Most people in the Bane forum aren't in the council, and we don't make them join. However, I always bring my stuff before the council before I post it because these are the highest level players. I feel like they would have a good idea on what works and what doesn't. These are people who dedicate months of time to seeing if a single piece of tech works, so I doubt they put the work in just so they can disregard or prevent information from coming in. Anyone can post anything they want, the council might come in and see if it works or if there is untapped potential, and if there are errors we point them out... But we don't force people to comply to our filter. Its a personal choice we've made to improve our character by making a dedicated group of individuals to specifically work through these techs and ensure they are the best they can be. You can judge us, but at the end of the day, the Bane forum still has the most tech posted, even with this group in place. Hell, our council has more posts in it than the bottom 25/30 character forums combined, and while a good portion of it is just chatting there is no denying that our tech is crisp, clean, and to the point. Its effective, and you'll be hard pressed to find any tech that isn't explored. I'd say, actually, that you are just like me. You're right, inspiration can be found through bad tech, but not if we just accept bad tech as good tech. If we don't explore the options, take the risk to question what is given to us, and look beyond the horizon, we can't become these inspired tech people. We can't develop if we can't move on.

Finally, there is more to tech than what is 100% reliable in a tournament setting - some people just get a kick out of trying to break the game for the hell of it while making an awesome combo video in the process. One of my favourites from Tony-T showing a piece of Scorpion reset tech on a specific stage...

This has elements of a tech in it.

Useful? Nope. Video hype as hell? Yep.

It showcases something useful in a hype way. However, there is something to be gained, and that something is 100% reliable in tournaments.

To end with a pretentious quote: "Just because something doesn't do what you planned it to do doesn't mean it's useless." - Thomas Edison

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1man3letters said:

cant bring the substance? check out the inj scorpion forum or baraka forum if your care to sample my substance.
when you can have a conversation using logic and not ego step into my kitchen

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Doombawkz said:

Should I do a little golf clap? Perhaps give you a cookie? You're not the only one who makes tech, but its not your tech that lacks substance, its your stance.

When you can understand what the difference between good tech and bad tech is, realize you're not standing in a kitchen and are sitting in front of a computer.

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1man3letters said:

do less drugs....or more,depends on your situation

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SLy said:

Bad tech is actually good. I know the Lab monsters catch a thrill off of turning something supposedly bad into something great.

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Juggs said:

I hate making threads like this, but there's some tech I've found with Liu Kang. Not saying it's new, I haven't played this game since May and rarely see any Kang's playing at tournaments. This thread at the moment is kinda pointless, because I really want to wait until after Final Round to discuss it. My strongest advantage right now is the element of surprise and no one has really played me offline yet. So in the meantime, I would just like some strong tips or strategies you guys have found or are using. Like I said, I'll tell you all about mine after Final Round. And what I've "found" probably is already known or used, haha.

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