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General/Other - Reptile Variation thoughts.

Saltea Moonspell

"Mind Over Matter" I dont mind, and X dont matter
I feel like more should be given while In this invisible variation:
melee/projectile buff while invisible
or maybe:
Health regeneration 1/1/5% per second
Or one of the other bars faster regeneration

I am aware that it easier said then done to maintain balance but to make it all really worth it since plain invisibility may not be as good as other characters tools in the game. Something should be added here to make Reptile players feel that this option provide good set of tools that will allow it to be used in high level game play against terminators like KL or some other Hat Tier class!
 

UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
You're massively underestimating invisibility and how it can change matchups. That becomes a difference between being able to space and being totally unable to, and that means characters that rely heavily on traditional footsies suffer a lot as soon as the opponent cannot be seen.
I get what you are saying. And I am not totally under selling the invisibilty, my main point is this:

For a whole variation, and a bar of meter, the invisibility will most likely have the same properties, and disengage once blocking an attack or being hit, and maybe even just stop after a certain amount of time.

I feel it needs to be more worth it for a whole variation. I could buy into it if the MB version remained active whilst taking block damage and or being hit, meaning opponents would have to know how to juggle him whilst invisible until the clock runs out on it. That would be a worth while MB version of a variation specific move.

Does anyone else see my point?
 

trufenix

bye felicia
Not everyone who mains reptile (or any character) is doing it to find the absolute optimal build. Many people are just going to pick the variation that suits them or is cool to them, and to a lot of people turning invisible is fucking sweet. The beauty of variations is that now you have three chances to find a reason to like a character, not just either learn to love zoning / rushdown / grappling or not. I for one have no interest in playing the time stop game and learning jim loops.
 

Chaosphere

The Free Meter Police
What mix ups does invisibility provide apart from the following?:

If he has no lows or overheads starting or in the middle of his strings, then it will be a matter of blocking low every time and trying not to get his by the overhead claw at the end of strings, as sliding will just knock you away, and doesn't look like it is a hard knockdown, which claw is, and will not be worth it as slide can be punished (I assume). At most he can stagger with strings and maybe get a grab, which will end his pressure. Crossing up won't really matter, as holding block will block both ways.

Invisibility won't grant him more options unless he has really killer non mid mid mid strings, and from what I have seen so far, he doesn't.
I mean... you could end a combo early with possibly a hard knock down into ex-invisibility to go for a jip which MAY lead to a low/overhead mixup. We don't even know if he has a low starter or anyting. That could be HUGE.

I would just say at this point, there's no sense in saying what will and won't be viable. The variation is called "deception" or something like that, which sounds to me like it's a tricky/mixup based variation.
 

trufenix

bye felicia
I mean... you could end a combo early with possibly a hard knock down into ex-invisibility to go for a jip which MAY lead to a low/overhead mixup. We don't even know if he has a low starter or anyting. That could be HUGE.

I would just say at this point, there's no sense in saying what will and won't be viable. The variation is called "deception" or something like that, which sounds to me like it's a tricky/mixup based variation.
Just the threat of being full invisible meterless and having dash, slide, two overhead options (one of which launches on MB) on the table is pretty exciting. You can go full invisible get a knockdown and then drop the super slow forceball and only someone with a teleport or fast projectile is going to be able to do anything but block the mixup.

oh shit, and mb throws too? dis gon' be good.
 

SLy

Noob
I dont know about that dude. I feel like Invisibility can end up being a pretty strong Meta depending on a players understanding on how to take advantage of a players habits. Your opponent will be bound to crack under pressure quick especially if he cant see you. It sort of take away his ability to anticapate and read reptile correctly.. Its more of a meta game variation. Definitley can be viable.
 

aldazo

Waiting for Havik
I feel like more should be given while In this invisible variation:
melee/projectile buff while invisible
or maybe:
Health regeneration 1/1/5% per second
Or one of the other bars faster regeneration

I am aware that it easier said then done to maintain balance but to make it all really worth it since plain invisibility may not be as good as other characters tools in the game. Something should be added here to make Reptile players feel that this option provide good set of tools that will allow it to be used in high level game play against terminators like KL or some other Hat Tier class!
I suggested this in other thread: make the full invisibility inmune to projectiles while blocking (I mean he keeps the invisibility but take the cheap damage) and make the full invisibility transition to a partial invisibility after a non-blocked hit, and from partial invisibility to visibility after a second hit.
 

aldazo

Waiting for Havik
Not everyone who mains reptile (or any character) is doing it to find the absolute optimal build. Many people are just going to pick the variation that suits them or is cool to them, and to a lot of people turning invisible is fucking sweet. The beauty of variations is that now you have three chances to find a reason to like a character, not just either learn to love zoning / rushdown / grappling or not. I for one have no interest in playing the time stop game and learning jim loops.
That's totally true, but some people are legitimate concern that their prefered variation could end being the worst, and want to get fun while getting more victories than losses; I guess that's why they want to bring the issue to the table.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
So....this thread is basically terrible, UsedForGlue.

You are seriously undervaluing the usefulness of invisibility. Especially free, FULL invisibility.

All right, let's unpack this for a second:

So you think that free full invisibility is useless. That it's a gimmick. All right. So, we're all pretty sure that Reptile has at least one or two hard knock down capabilities, right? Right. So what if I end my combo in a hard knock down and then go for full invisibility?

"But Rude!" you say, "you don't get a damage buff AND they could throw a projectile to hit you out of it!"

First off, we were watching an incomplete build. We don't know for a FACT, 100% certainty, that he doesn't get one. Secondly, why don't you just duck the projectile? Or jump over it. Or, if you're further away than that, since running is cancellable with normals,specials,etc, start a run, cancel it with a downpoke that could lower his hitbox, and then continue your approach? ALSO...doesn't his leaping move have the ability to go OVER projectiles? Sounds like Reptile will have no problem with that.

Next up: Reptile still has his elbow dash. It doesn't look as fast as it was in MK9, but it does look like a quick, unreactable, advancing special move that leads to a knockdown, just like the old dash was. Gee, I wonder if you could condition people with the threat of dash while invisible to get people to hold onto block, since they're expecting a dash, and then use that conditioning to start jump-ins, pressure, throws, etc?

Once they start waiting for the dash, you could even toss a slow ball, stop the slow ball where you want it, and now they're thinking, "Oh shit! This slow ball is right in front of me! I better jump over it!" And then you anti-air them. Or, if they don't jump and sit still, you're still in business because you've effectively stopped their movement. Now it's true, they could armor through it, but I don't see why you couldn't just block the armored move and punish it, which could lead to another hard knock down and another invisibility set-up.

But wait, you might say, "Rude, you will never have many opportunities to go invisible!" Hmm. Maybe. Wait, no, in MK9 Reptile players often ended combos in invisibility. I'm sure it would take some tweaking(say, going invisible after hitting an opponent with a forceball, cutting your combo short and decreasing damage dealt, but giving you set-ups), but I see no reason why you couldn't do this. If you're worried about wake-up attacks, there have been many reports of wake-ups being way easier to stuff in this game than the last, something that I'm sure with proper timing a quick, unreactable, advancing special move MIGHT(pay attention to word choice) be able to do. I wonder what move he has that does....

Oh yeah. Elbow dash.

A word on his pressure: Say all he has are mids and overheads. That's fine. Too many people think that you need a shit ton of lows/overheads to "mix-up" an opponent. Mix-ups aren't just overheads and lows. Again, this is theory-based, but say he has some strings that are 0 on block within a few of the hits. We'll call this string 123. Say 12 is 0 on block. So I'm Reptile and I'm pressuring my opponent. I do 12, but do not do the 3. Instead, I sneak in a lowpoke which leaves me at +frames and allows me to continue pressure. Now, say I do that again, but instead of going for the poke, I cut the string short and do his overhead swipe, which would blow up someone reading that I'm going to stagger again and poke again. And you could reverse the scenario and it still works. Now sure, being at 0 means nothing is guaranteed, but that's where conditioning comes in. If he has 0 strings, you could mix in pokes, overheads, throws, Elbow dashes if you think they're going to hit buttons, etc.

Sounds like pretty fucking good pressure to me. Again, he may not have any 0 strings and I may be talking out my tookus.

But free, full invisibility is HARDLY a gimmick. You just need to be creative.

Ninja edit: We do remember that it's been confirmed that low-pokes on hit are linkable to special moves, right?
 
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IrishMantis

Most humble shit talker ever!!!
Yeah i agree.

it should give some good buffs like speed and dmg

maybe something like infinite Stamina during it or have his moves launch without meter during it, it needs to do alot more than just to be invisible
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Yeah i agree.

it should give some good buffs like speed and dmg

maybe something like infinite Stamina during it or have his moves launch without meter during it, it needs to do alot more than just to be invisible
No, it really doesn't. Being full invisible for free is fine.
 

Wemfs

The only morality in a cruel world is chance.
@Rude just opened my eyes really wide. Now I can see great potential in all of Reptile's variations, mainly his Deceptive variation which I was skeptical of. Thanks for the good read, sir.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
After watching the breakdown of Reptile's Variations, I am a little jarred about him.

First of all, his Invisibility variation is completely useless, If I am honest, and for what it does, it will never be worth it in its current state, as the other variations will win over it every time. Invisibility in any MK game has never been MU specific, its a general move, that really only works as a mind game, and at best, allows you to stagger strings and maybe cross up more than you normally could while visible.

Reasons are:
It is a variation specific move.
I like that you can predator version for no meter, and hold the button for full invisibility, were it cost you a bar in MK9, BUT...the MB version for an entire variation is that you get invisibility quicker...is that really the best an entire MB variation move has to offer?

It does no extra damage, and no doubt you will lose it once you block a move. It isn't even creative or rewarding by maybe allowing reptile to take no chip damage while invisible, or giving his throws double damage...nothing.

I also bet that it will just plain and simply run out after time span, even if you use a bar of meter and select an entire variation for it. So unless this gets looked at, this variation will die off, and never be used in competitive play because of the other variations. Gimmick.

The slowing down variation will work straight away against heavy zoning characters, the same characters in MK9 that could just projectile him out of the game and make it very difficult to even walk forward because of his then slow dash and walk start up speed, MU's like Lui Kang, Kitana, Kung Lao, Quan Chi, Skarlet, Freddy, Sektor, Sonya etc. This variation will be used against those type of zoners, pick your moment, and move through the projectiles, or jump over them with enough reaction time whilst in this variation.

Lastly, his Noxious will be his go to variation, as why not use it in any other MU that you are getting free chip damage for. This will work against opponents that can't deal with his offence or pressure or knockdowns, and even better against characters that he can't escape their pressure without elbow dashing or sliding out of. Yes, it isn't great damage normally (1% every 1.5 seconds, could be 0.5%), but if you get a MB version out, you get what looks like 2%, and it lasts 5 seconds.

Im guessing Reptile's get off me move will be D1 or D4 linked into overhead claw, then MB cloud. And either way, Reptile players will be hammering D1 overhead claw like its chrisms, as this is MK, and mashing out special moves after pokes is a thing this community does, most players don't care about hit confirming the poke and maybe getting a string, most won't bother if they can get a safe special out from not hit confirming a poke.

Reptile right now, has two variations. Invisibility should be a standard move across all variations.

I honestly thought he would have a spit or forceball variation.

Just my thoughts.
You shouldn't be jarred -- and the reason why is this; I don't think we should assume that every variation for every single character is necessarily going to be as great as the others. Now with that said, there will still be individuals that find uses for or prefer lesser-used variations, and that's fine. It'll give everyone a chance to have their own personality in how they go about approaching the character.

But overall, just like everything else in fighting games (strings, and characters in general) people will probably figure out and gravitate towards a specific 1-2 variations as kind of a best-fit for a character. Sure, there may be some characters where all 3 end up being equally potent, but right now we don't know enough about the game to know if that's true for the entire cast (and if I had to guess, I wouldn't expect it to be that way).
 

trufenix

bye felicia
That's totally true, but some people are legitimate concern that their prefered variation could end being the worst, and want to get fun while getting more victories than losses; I guess that's why they want to bring the issue to the table.
well, I didn't want Sheeva or Shazam to suck but it happens. The point is speculation is fun, but an outright declaration that "x is going to be bad or useless or worthless" is completely insane at this point. Derek and Tyler (as much as I love them) are far from what we would call "good" and there's absolutely no guarantee that anything we're seeing now will be the same on day one.