Match-up Discussion Juicy VIII.c: My Final(ized) MU chart

EGP Wonder_Chef · Jan 30, 2015

I would take a Batman next to me at advantage than a GL next to me at advantage any day.

Serious question to MIT and Nubs though:

Why are you arguing with somebody who has literally said Zoning is not viable in Injustice?

You realize he has no idea what he's talking about right?

YOMI MITYEAP · Jan 30, 2015

FOREVER KING said:
Yeah but the difference is Batman loses his trait when he is pushblocked or hit, Sinestro doesn't. Also Sinestro has a better overhead/low mixup than Batman, Batman only has F3 or B1.

The thing about reading opponents by releasing trait bats when they try to get out of pressure is, your opponent really doesn't have to try to get of pressure. Who cares if you block for 30 seconds? Chip damage by normals is extremely minimal in Injustice. Just let Batman waste all of his meter. There is nothing scary about blocking Batman, there is no reason to try to escape his pressure. Just respect all of his frame advantage, you will get out eventually. He doesn't have infinite meter.

When I play against other Batman players and I have the life lead, i literallly just sit there and block until time runs out. They can't do anything lol. Eventually they get despereate because you're blocking everything, so they jump or do something risky. That's when you punish them, then go back to blocking. Get bodied Batman, ggs.

There is no reason to try to escape his block pressure, there for there is no reason he should be reading your escapes and releasing bats for a full punish. Just block

I see u rdy to use lao haha, he looks sick. And yep, blocking is the key vs batman.

YOMI MITYEAP · Jan 30, 2015

EGP Wonder_Chef said:
I would take a Batman next to me at advantage than a GL next to me at advantage any day.

Serious question to MIT and Nubs though:

Why are you arguing with somebody who has literally said Zoning is not viable in Injustice?

You realize he has no idea what he's talking about right?

Honestly I prolly should just stop, but I am wondering if he will keep going haha.

cR WoundCowboy · Jan 30, 2015

EGP Wonder_Chef said:
I would take a Batman next to me at advantage than a GL next to me at advantage any day.

Serious question to MIT and Nubs though:

Why are you arguing with somebody who has literally said Zoning is not viable in Injustice?

You realize he has no idea what he's talking about right?

lol it's not. The only really good zoner is Zod. Sinestro is good because of his footsie game, vortex, and trait. His zoning isn't that great outside of 4-5 mus.

ForeverKing · Jan 30, 2015

MITDJT said:
I see u rdy to use lao haha, he looks sick. And yep, blocking is the key vs batman.

Yeah for sure, either Kung Lao or Scorpion. Ermac looked pretty sick tho, I'm definitely going to mess around with him. I'm going to be the best Lao again

YOMI MITYEAP · Jan 30, 2015

FOREVER KING said:
Yeah for sure, either Kung Lao or Scorpion. Ermac looked pretty sick tho, I'm definitely going to mess around with him. I'm going to be the best Lao again

20$ MM random select evo 2015

, prepare to get bodied haha. Also I am feeling scorpion, Mac, and reptile

EGP Wonder_Chef · Jan 30, 2015

cR WoundCowboy said:
lol it's not. The only really good zoner is Zod. Sinestro is good because of his footsie game, vortex, and trait. His zoning isn't that great outside of 4-5 mus.

Hahaha, oh man you're never going to change.

You seriously think "good zoning" means "killing them with just projectiles" don't you?

ForeverKing · Jan 30, 2015

Wait so Raven, Cyborg, Martian, Deathstroke and Batman can't viably zone in Injustice? Are you guys sure?

If that's what you believe I don't think you watched me play Max with Batman, or Jupiter vs anyone lol. Are you even watching the same Injustice as me? Because I'm pretty sure I've seen zoning in tournaments dozens of times lol

ForeverKing · Jan 30, 2015

MITDJT said:
20$ MM random select evo 2015 , prepare to get bodied haha. Also I am feeling scorpion, Mac, and reptile

Idk if we are going to use the whole cast in this one bro, 3 variations per character and 30 characters.. PHEW!! That's alot of training lol

YOMI MITYEAP · Jan 30, 2015

FOREVER KING said:
Idk if we are going to use the whole cast in this one bro, 3 variations per character and 30 characters.. PHEW!! That's alot of training lol

Yeah true bro haha, but I am sure some variations will bite the dust. If anything, we could do a bros v bros match which would be hype!

cR WoundCowboy · Jan 30, 2015

FOREVER KING said:
Wait so Raven, Cyborg, Martian, Deathstroke and Batman can't viably zone in Injustice? Are you guys sure?

If that's what you believe I don't think you watched me play Max with Batman, or Jupiter vs anyone lol. Are you even watching the same Injustice as me? Because I'm pretty sure I've seen zoning in tournaments dozens of times lol

I should have added Martian to the list. But i'd argue that the other characters that you listed can only zone effectively in some MUs. Cyborg and Raven are flawed, and Deathstroke and Batman are good because they have more than zoning.

EGP Wonder_Chef · Jan 30, 2015

cR WoundCowboy said:
and Deathstroke and Batman are good because they have more than zoning.

Hahaha! He really does think that for zoning to be good a character needs to be able to win with 100% of damage through zoning.

I didn't realize how right I was!

YOMI MITYEAP · Jan 30, 2015

@cR WoundCowboy you obviously are skilled and have good fundamentals and what not, but this matchup u aren't right on. Nothing bad about being wrong, happens to all of us.

Krayzie · Jan 30, 2015

cR WoundCowboy said:
lol it's not. The only really good zoner is Zod. Sinestro is good because of his footsie game, vortex, and trait. His zoning isn't that great outside of 4-5 mus.

I think its really fucked up how Zod gets to zone the entire cast while my Martian has to deal with having to get in.

cR WoundCowboy · Jan 30, 2015

EGP Wonder_Chef said:
Hahaha! He really does think that for zoning to be good a character needs to be able to win with 100% of damage through zoning.

I didn't realize how right I was!

Raven and Cyborg basically just have their zoning, which really hurts them in alot of MUS. How do they get their damage? It's basically a combination of chip and forcing mistakes in movement. They don't have good mixups. The other characters that I mentioned are deadly because they have decent zoning and good offense.

EGP Wonder_Chef · Jan 30, 2015

cR WoundCowboy said:
Raven and Cyborg basically just have their zoning, which really hurts them in alot of MUS. How do they get their damage? It's basically a combination of chip and forcing mistakes in movement. They don't have good mixups. The other characters that I mentioned are deadly because they have decent zoning and good offense.

Yeah man, zoning is unviable so a full zoning character like Raven will never place well.

Like 2nd at KIT for instance.

And yes... that's how zoning characters get their damage... not just 100% by fireballs, but by forcing the opponent to move by controlling space...

cR WoundCowboy · Jan 30, 2015

MITDJT said:
@cR WoundCowboy you obviously are skilled and have good fundamentals and what not, but this matchup u aren't right on. Nothing bad about being wrong, happens to all of us.

I have addressed all of the points that the Batman players have posed. You actually are doing what you are accusing me of; you laugh at my points and provide no insight into the MUs.

YOMI MITYEAP · Jan 30, 2015

cR WoundCowboy said:
I have addressed all of the points that the Batman players have posed. You actually are doing what you are accusing me of; you laugh at my points and provide no insight into the MUs.

Actually no, you are being a diva right now lmao. U didn't answer my question I stated previous about talking about the different positions on the screen (which I said I would gladly respond to) so don't try to pull the "no insight" card on me. The difference between me and u in MU talk is A. I can admit if I am wrong and B. I can and have gone in depth when talking about a matchup and dnt even need to mention a number.
Also an "accusation" isn't proven, but what I have been saying about ur talk on this matchup is definitely true. I am going to be blunt with this statement, u in no way, shape, or form know more about GL or this MU in particular than I do.

rev0lver · Jan 30, 2015

FOREVER KING said:
Wait so Raven, Cyborg, Martian, Deathstroke and Batman can't viably zone in Injustice? Are you guys sure?

If that's what you believe I don't think you watched me play Max with Batman, or Jupiter vs anyone lol. Are you even watching the same Injustice as me? Because I'm pretty sure I've seen zoning in tournaments dozens of times lol

Pretty much every game (other than 3D i guess?) has strong zoners and strong zoning matchups. I wouldn't say this game is really dominated by it at all though, there's only a few characters/mu's where it's really a game-changing thing that can't just be normally dealt with

Cage Redfield · Jan 30, 2015

what an amazingly one-sided thread

god i miss TYM and don't at the same time

rev0lver · Jan 30, 2015

EGP Wonder_Chef said:
Yeah man, zoning is unviable so a full zoning character like Raven will never place well.

Like 2nd at KIT for instance.

And yes... that's how zoning characters get their damage... not just 100% by fireballs, but by forcing the opponent to move by controlling space...

she's not a full zoning character. at a high level at least, her damage comes primarily from punishing mistakes and her tools in footsies. she didn't place 2nd at KIT just by her zoning tools (and yes, I and most people realize it's not just throwing fireballs, space control is the biggest aspect of my character's zoning game). maybe in some matches his opponent personally struggled against zoning, but in others and generally at a high level her damage primarily comes from other means.

Cage Redfield · Jan 30, 2015

rev0lver said:
she's not a full zoning character. at a high level at least, her damage comes primarily from punishing mistakes and her tools in footsies. she didn't place 2nd at KIT just by her zoning tools (and yes, I and most people realize it's not just throwing fireballs, space control is the biggest aspect of my character's zoning game).

What's different from this and what chef said? He said a full zoning character gets their damage from chip and punishing bad movement decisions/whiff punishing. With that in mind, you basically just said "at a high level, her damage comes primarily from zoning" unless I'm missing something here.

I'm pretty sure we all know by now that Raven gets her damage and is called a zoner because of pillar chip followed by catching dash attempts or button presses with soul crush/another pillar.

ForeverKing · Jan 30, 2015

cR WoundCowboy said:
I have addressed all of the points that the Batman players have posed. You actually are doing what you are accusing me of; you laugh at my points and provide no insight into the MUs.

We've told you everything we need to tell you. Not just the Batman players, the GL players as well. In your own words, it's a matchup that's universally acknowledged as 4-6.
You are the only one who thinks otherwise. But you don't even use either character or play the matchup, so what makes you think you would know better then the people who do play the characters and do play the matchup?

rev0lver · Jan 30, 2015

Cage Redfield said:
What's different from this and what chef said? He said a full zoning character gets their damage from chip and punishing bad movement decisions/whiff punishing. With that in mind, you basically just said "at a high level, her damage comes primarily from zoning" unless I'm missing something here.

I'm pretty sure we all know by now that Raven gets her damage and is called a zoner because of pillar chip followed by catching dash attempts or button presses with soul crush/another pillar.

No, I'm referring to her whiff punishing things mostly by her backwalk combined with her footsie tools. Her zoning in demon stance is mostly a chip tool, and her soul crush punishing mistakes in movement (what you're referring to) is more often like a shot to throw that will sometimes work, but can't be relied upon.

ForeverKing · Jan 30, 2015

cR WoundCowboy said:
I should have added Martian to the list. But i'd argue that the other characters that you listed can only zone effectively in some MUs. Cyborg and Raven are flawed, and Deathstroke and Batman are good because they have more than zoning.

But it's still zoning nonetheless. You can't say zoning is unviable in Injustice if it happens, even if only some matchups it still happens. You could say zoning doesn't dominate injustice, or zoning doesn't happen that often.... But zoning unviable? Nah

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