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Official UMK3:TE Changelog and Discussion Thread

dubson

Noob
Ah, thanks guys.

Im going to have to agree with @9.95 then, thats pretty crucial to have.

I still believe Shang's pop-up should be able to start from a knee lift.
 

9.95

Noob
There's no reason for it. I hit that shit plenty of times a match.

As for the TPU, I'm not sure what has to be done to correct that. It's a long known issue.
Honestly, I think the overhead is a great idea to try in a public beta. The only way to know is to get it out in the wild and let players see how it works.

Hopefully the hacker will add the overhead to Scorpion's combo and a few other overheads as well to see how it affects the game.
 

BustaUppa

Westbury Nathan's 4 Life
So maybe at the end of the day, scorpion isn't a tournament viable character.
Boon even said scorpion was one of his, if not his favorite character in the franchise… Maybe scorpion was so nerfed to begin with because he didn't want scorpion to be so over picked
I highly doubt that much thought was put into it. H.Smoke was simply meant to be a super-cool secret character that was overpowered by design, and they didn't even have a concept of a modern competitive scene when they put him in there.

If only they knew the problems and debates in the community that his casual inclusion would stir 20 years down the road... lol.
So is the discussion now dead because the Beta is out?
I would have thought that there was even more to discuss for that very reason? :/

Anyone?
Well, now that the game is out I've discovered that it barely functions on my laptop. I've made the decision to lug my old desktop over to my new apartment when I get the chance - it's old, but has a decent graphics card and was basically a dedicated MAME machine in my former place. Anyway, that's why I personally have been posting less. But it looks like some more lively discussion has broken out as of late, so moot point I suppose. :D
 
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dubson

Noob
Scorpion may be a "Good" Character (for whatever that means, they are all good characters) but how good? Top 10? Top 15? Middle of the pack? Top 20?

I completely agree with @9.95 , Scorpion needs more. There is absolutely no reason to pick this character right now in high level play.

@Shock , Why was his new combo reverted from being able to stem from a knee lift?

So basically, his mobility was nerfed, his damage on blocking the teleport has been nerfed, nerfed his ability to teleport out of the corner.

All for a couple new combo paths, that don't even hit out of a Knee?

He doesn't need a pop-up that hits out of Knee, but he needs decent damage out of hitting out of Knee, or an overhead, or a forward teleport, something drastic Im very sorry, or he cannot kompete against good Players. @9.95 is completely right, and that is that he needs another way to "open you up".

This doesn't change him enough. He will stay around exactly where he is like this.

I say revert his teleport cool down to VUMK3 and give him the ability to do decent damage out of a knee, no need for an overhead, forward teleport or jumping around after a spear. As of now, why would anybody pick this guy over H Smoke? He may actually be worse than he was in VUMK3, as to me his mobility was his strongest attribute and you guys nerfed it for a combo that doesn't even start from a Knee, so it will rarely land on good players outside of block punishes. Scorpion needs offensive pressure….. He doesn't have a zone game like "Shang" and his turtle/run game has been nerfed!!!

Basically hurt his turtle/run away game, and buffed his damage output, but didn't increase his chances of landing damage/increased damage…. Which is why he was bad in the first place. His damage out of elbow and knee were both low.. now just his damage out of knee is low… Not enough to help him. Not enough to pick him in a game with H Smoke (Or Ermac) as he is.
 
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dubson

Noob
I highly doubt that much thought was put into it. H.Smoke was simply meant to be a super-cool secret character that was overpowered by design, and they didn't even have a concept of a modern competitive scene when they put him in there.

If only they knew the problems and debates in the community that his casual inclusion would stir 20 years down the road... lol.
Well, now that the game is out I've discovered that it barely functions on my laptop. I've made the decision to lug my old desktop over to my new apartment when I get the chance - it's old, but has a decent graphics card and was basically a dedicated MAME machine in my former place. Anyway, that's why I personally have been posting less. But it looks like some more lively discussion has broken out as of late, so moot point I suppose. :D
I completely agree, take H Smoke's AKUMA ASS out of the game and this is the best game ever made.

Now they want to make Noob a playable character??

LMFAO.
 

9.95

Noob
Not in the slightest.

But giving classic sub a freeze throw, reptile a backward flip on slide, and some of the changes that have already been implemented… LOL yes
I think CSub getting the small pop up after slide is good... I think I saw that mentioned somewhere. There are some changes, like my recommendation for Stryker, that I think are good "new" moves as well. I recommended that Stryker get a SFA3 Ken style roll where he's projectile immune.

I definitely don't want to see many more new moves... though I wouldn't mind a well done version of Scorpion's hellfire, LOL.
 

dubson

Noob
Good ol' H Smoke gets that Invisibility though!!! Good for him!!!!

Yeah!!! Keep focusing on H Smoke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And Noob!!!!!!!!!!!

H Smoke gets nerfed, but not without Invisibility and Scorpion can't get DECENT damage out of a Knee.

Not that every character needs decent damage out of a Knee, but Scorpion does…. Scorpion in UMK3….. DOES. No overhead. No hellfire. Nerfed his mobility for a combo that doesn't hit out of knee. His damage out of knee is WEAK, and he doesn't exactly have an iAF. Dude is basic as fuck.

IDK what's going on with this game….
 
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BustaUppa

Westbury Nathan's 4 Life
I think CSub getting the small pop up after slide is good... I think I saw that mentioned somewhere. There are some changes, like my recommendation for Stryker, that I think are good "new" moves as well. I recommended that Stryker get a SFA3 Ken style roll where he's projectile immune.

I definitely don't want to see many more new moves... though I wouldn't mind a well done version of Scorpion's hellfire, LOL.
I like the slide idea because it actually resembles the way it hits in MK4 (and I think some other later games? Not sure.). Not that MK4 is the best source of inspiration, but it's cool if a change has some precedent in other games, rather than just being completely pulled out of the blue.
 

dubson

Noob
If the argument is that, Scorpion became H Smoke. So??

First of all, Let's be honest, H Smoke is more of what Scorpion should have been and everyone including Ed Boon knows that. H Smoke turned out to be Scorpion on steroids and then Scorpion never got high level play. Well, give Scorpion some steroids (aka Something).

Second of all, it isn't the case anyway. Sure they are much closer to each other but H Smoke still has a pop-up (multiple pop-ups with paths out of different block strings which is great for his offense)/relauncher, invisibility, etc. They are not the same.

Third, if that is the case, why does Ermac get to be so similar to H Smoke and have GREAT damage out of Knee?? Great damage all around?

Fourth, why hurt his mobility compared to the others, and Not have increased ways of "opening you up"

Fifth, if his merit for being able to jump around after a spear is "He originated it, so he should be the best at it." What about his version of the Teleport Punch? He originated that…. Shouldn't he then be the best at that too? hmmmmmm

Scorpion is still strictly worse than H Smoke, but Ermac as well….
 
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Shock

Administrator
Premium Supporter
@dubson - the reason why you don't know what's going on is because this is a WIP and you guys are now testing an open beta but treating it like a finished product. No need to get emotional over changes or not yet changed things.

I am not a fan of the teleport punch nerfs in general, I think it should be one or the other type of nerf distributed amongst the three but having two nerfs is a lot. For Scorpion, I would like to see counter stagger unblockable followup (a la Liu Kang Bike kick) for the TP.

Being able to jump after the spear is not off the table, we'll have to see how that goes.

I don't like the Scorpion 5 hit combo with the knee as it renders his HKHK, LKLK nearly pointless, but I think HK, D+HP, U+LP could stay. I see no problem with that. And not to mention, forward teleport punch, which, it's not really a teleport is it? All these years we've called it that. That and I'd like to figure out how to give him the Hell Fire, and Hell, even maybe the fire breath move he has in MK4. After all, Scorpion only has the spear, TP and air throw.

Overheads will be applied and tested thoroughly once implemented, that is down the line a bit. I'd like to see the overhead applied to the second hit of that 3 hit Scoprion combo HK, U+LP, D+HP, so now you can check with that two hit, make your opponent stand, then check with a sweep...or Hell Fire eventually?

A number of changes being made are in a way, evolving the game to resemble things that happened as the games went on, because it can be reproduced, and we know what was good/bad/broken about these additions and fix them. This way, it's sort of like how they changed the Vs games as they want on, adding moves to existing sprites and changing properties. For UMK3, you've played it for years, you know all know the ins and outs, we all know what's broken, we know what needs help. It'll get there. I love the idea of logically adding moves that eventually happened over the years because it adds a dimension that almost makes it feel like a updated game using the same engine, rather than distancing from the game itself. So much more can be done with UMK3 than with MKII for example. The more you change MKII, the faster it becomes more like MK3 so there was sort of an artificial limit applied on how far things could go. Eventually, it wouldn't be MKII anymore. With 3, there's a lot more to work with because there's really a lot of content that can be manipulated, it's just a matter of finding out how.

Again with CSub Slide buff, it'd be almost like a manual version of Sub's MK9 enhanced slide.
 
Can we just have tournament edition? I mean… Scorpions hell fire, fire breath, enhanced slides all that… How about making that Mortal Kombat 3 1/2, and Mortal Kombat almost trilogy… Let's not reinvent the wheel to make this game "tournament edition"

I would really like to see tournament edition as an evolution, like ultimate MK2 was to MK2. Not an almost new game on the same source code. I mean, are we going to start holding back to block? And choosing fighting styles? Give human smoke an air throw OR invisibility? How about a freeze slide option for sub? Flip back slide and the next hit auto freezes, unless hit count >5?


Unless we're going to make Noob a Mortal Kombat 3 chameleon… Then I'm all in. Or put in a palette swap of Stryker and make Pedro a real character.

Also what about Rain? Sprite is there. Let's give him a moveset...and a near phallic win pose. If we are gonna make mugen, let's get to work on those custom sprites!!
 
A number of changes being made are in a way, evolving the game to resemble things that happened as the games went on, because it can be reproduced, and we know what was good/bad/broken about these additions and fix them.
---------
I love the idea of logically adding moves that eventually happened over the years because it adds a dimension that almost makes it feel like a updated game using the same engine, rather than distancing from the game itself.
Brother, I have nothing but the utmost respect for you and what you have done for the Mortal Kombat community. But 100% honesty, I could not disagree with you more.

We are not talking about "ultimate Mortal Kombat: retrofit". We're talking about tournament edition, something to balance of the way ultimate plays, unless I am totally off base with this concept.

I can see, and am totally behind making some of the more… Undesirable… Mortal Kombat games, MORE desirable by manipulating the engine that Mortal Kombat three uses. an arcade perfect version of N64 or PlayStation Trilogy, for example. But for something that is still the core of ultimate Mortal Kombat three, I think it can be enhanced without being augmented, so to speak. get her in the gym and get her in shape, don't give her a Tummy tuck and move it to her tits. LOL
 

Shock

Administrator
Premium Supporter
Brother, I have nothing but the utmost respect for you and what you have done for the Mortal Kombat community. But 100% honesty, I could not disagree with you more.

We are not talking about "ultimate Mortal Kombat: retrofit". We're talking about tournament edition, something to balance of the way ultimate plays, unless I am totally off base with this concept.

I can see, and am totally behind making some of the more… Undesirable… Mortal Kombat games, MORE desirable by manipulating the engine that Mortal Kombat three uses. an arcade perfect version of N64 or PlayStation Trilogy, for example. But for something that is still the core of ultimate Mortal Kombat three, I think it can be enhanced without being augmented, so to speak. get her in the gym and get her in shape, don't give her a Tummy tuck and move it to her tits. LOL
There's almost no way to balance some of the low tier characters without at least giving them new moves/combos/significantly different properties. It's not as simple as say, nerfing Kabal's dash or Smoke's teleport punch. There's also a very specific set of limitations applied to how far things will go (back to block for example, will never happen), but I would say to try to look at UMK3 and the direction they were going with things in MKT, and treat this as a more calculated, less sloppy, no deadline application of the types of changes they were doing. eg: Raiden's combo into Superman, this is an interesting modification to the combo system, but things like the double missile, double fireball, double teleport, red bike kick, moving Spin with Kung Lao etc, are all very shallow changes to create the illusion of new gameplay features. They couldn't figure out how to make the ground saw good without it being too good probably because there was no time or they didn't care, I think we've done that. When I see "Give Sektor the double missile" I see that as preserving MKT which is cool, but I look at it like, "Why give him a double missile when he could have something even better or usable?" Most of what's been done so far is just shuffling properties for things to make better or worse results, changing damage, applying or removing DP, recovery and start up animations. It's honestly not really much more than MKII, it's just that more can be done.

As for Rain, it's theoretically possible to make him. Noob is still a placeholder for what he will be once we can reproduce his moves.
 

DWednesday

Undisputed #1 ScrubBot Worldwide.
  1. Remove all current nerfs to Kabal and H.Smoke, keep all other changes to them, and revert everyone else to their vanilla states.
  2. Remove all infintes.
  3. Buff everyone to top tier status, using anything the community can conjure up.
  4. Boss health for everyone.
  5. ???
  6. Profit.
;)

DWednesday's least helpful post ever.
 

DWednesday

Undisputed #1 ScrubBot Worldwide.
  1. Remove all current nerfs to Kabal and H.Smoke, keep all other changes to them, and revert everyone else to their vanilla states.
  2. Remove all infintes.
  3. Buff everyone to top tier status, using anything the community can conjure up.
  4. Boss health for everyone.
  5. ???
  6. Profit.
;)

DWednesday's least helpful post ever.
For real though, I do sometimes wonder why this kind of approach wasn't taken. It's does sound like a joke the way I put it, but no one really seems to have openly said it (unless they have, and I missed it, in which case, my apologies)

VUMK3 had some pretty "broke" or "OP" shit in it, (and again, this may've already been addressed) but why did start giving reasons not to pick certain characters (bye bye air throw, hello DP'd everything that kabal has)? Why got give more reason to pick different characters? Give Sektor some OP shit? Make Mileenas Roll a low, and not DP'd, and have a bigger hit limit, let Cyrax bomb with the net out. Iunno, shit.

I'm not saying this is what should've happened, just curious as to why it didn't?
 
Reactions: nwo

Shock

Administrator
Premium Supporter
@DWednesday

Some characters were uber nerfed intentionally to see if it would make them unplayable, and if so, they can be restored piece by piece. Trial and error is a lot easier that way. In Kabal's case, we applied every nerf we could think of within reason and in exchange gave him the better Ground Saw. Without the better Ground Saw, he undoubtedly would have been crushed by these nerfs.

Kabal's DP is absolutely necessary, but he can still achieve high damage with some skill and if it's earned. For example, JPS, 3 hit pop up, Ground Saw, aaHPHP, JK, FB is 47% and can be done on numerous characters, slight modifications result in lower damage on others, and instead of doing aaHP, spin, aaHPHP, JK, AFB for 49%, you can do aaHPHP, JK, AFB for 39%, or even still with some effort, you can get 46% on a punish with aaHPHP, aaHP, JK, AFB. Work for it Kabal! You've had it easy for 20 years. The Blur is still a crazy good containment and now he'll probably hit it 4 or 5 times a match instead of 2 or 3 if the Kabal player is actually good.

Smoke's air throw was removed to distance him from Scorpion. I think it's the only move (other than Kabal's 3 hit kick combo?) to be removed. It definitely could come back.

If Mileena's roll had no DP and a bigger hit limit, she'd do easy 70% combos. Right now, aaRoll, aaHPHP, JK, air sai is 48%. Right now the first roll has no DP, second roll (or if done on the second hit) does. I like these kinds of questions because it shows exactly how much deliberation has gone into it. If you could see the conversation for MKII and UMK3 TEs, its nuts. UMK3TE is up to 32 pages between mostly 4 people. Making it a low is still being debated. Might be too much, we know it is in MKII.

Cyrax bombs while the net is out is something i brought up a while back, I'd like to see if it makes him too crazy with resets because it might wind up being exactly like MK9. There can be precautions set in place I think, to foil this however.
 
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dreemernj

Ambassador
It'd be pretty easy to buff all the low characters so their matchups with higher tier characters even out. And that would suck.

Without some creativity, as the game gets more balanced, it'll also get more shallow IMO.

Anything that fits with the feel of the game and that successfully moves a character into a better place, by moving them up, down, or sideways, is worth trying. And now's the time to try it. It might mean making a character stronger, or weaker. Or a character might have to get weaker in one way and stronger in a different way. There are limits to how much stuff can change, so to successfully make as many characters tourny worthy as possible, some counter intuitive stuff is probably going to happen.

When the game works in the end, everything tried along the way will have been worth it.
 

DWednesday

Undisputed #1 ScrubBot Worldwide.
Without some creativity, as the game gets more balanced, it'll also get more shallow IMO.
This has me curious now. Shallower how?
I think high level VUMK3 Kabal and HSmoke matches are awesome, only problem is it's essentially only ever vs. Kabal or HSmoke.
What would be so bad about maybe Steroid Shang vs VUMK3 Kabal? Or an ultra-mecha-Christ-death-Jesus Liu Kang?
I can't visualize that being shallow :confused:
(as always, not saying this is how it should be, just curious :))