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The Argument Against Variation Lock

Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
I am suggesting combining character lock with non character lock

The winner can only change variation IF the loser changes character all together. So if the loser keeps his same character and counters with variation, the winner cannot change his variation and its a valid counter pick.

In the instance the loser does change character, the winner can change variation but he still has to pick first. The loser still gets to counter pick. Whats the problem with this?

I do not want to play a game where we have 90 different characters and the tournament rules are built like they are 90 different characters. I can only pray that it is balanced where there are 3 slightly different variations of each character to keep it fresh and fun.
This is beautiful.
 

EMPEROR PRYCE

WAR SEASON "THE WEAK EXPOSED!"
I think winner should keep character and variation. It's simple, clear cut, and the way most games are ran.
Winner shouldnt get the advantage of counter picking a counter pick. It isn't fair for the loser.
Giving a character a projectile.. or a command grab.. or a teleport.. or even a command dash will change the way the character is played entirely, essentially making it a new character. You cant switch characters if you win.
Let's treat each variation like a different character and keep it simple. I'm sure it'll be easier for everyone that way lol
 

Cossner

King of the Jobbers 2015
Administrator
I don't know I just thought you'd like the comment that I tagged you about lol.

Looks like you gave up your mission to call out random scrubs trying to talk high-level stuff.
Every post is huge I ain't reading shit lol just point me in the right direction I guess?

???
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
I agree with character lock, but not variation lock.
All arguments that say lock both or don't lock both are assuming that the variation you are picking will have multiple 3-7s that are easily accessible.

However, locking the character but letting the winner still pick his variation (albeit first) will let them have the best odds of not being outright counter-picked.
Lets assume every character, and every variation, has a 3-7 losing MU against every other character in every other variation. In this case, no matter what the P1 side picks, the P2 side will counter.
This is the train of thought most people are following. This is not how it works.

Characters, barring 1 or 2 specials, are mostly the same. They have the same mobility, the same strings (for the most part), and so on. Only the few differences will make a change, and for a lot of character, it won't cause a 3-7.

Lets take Kotal and Quan, for example. Against Quan's portal buff, Kotal might take sun because sun beam would deny him that space. Is it a good countermeasure? Sure. Does it make the MU 7-3 his favor? Not necessarily.
So picking Kotal/sun as the winner wouldn't necessarily be counter-picking the loser since he can pick a different Quan, but the likely hood of Quan having a variation that counters Sun is also unlikely.
You'd have probably like... a 6-4, a 4-6, and a 5-5. All winnable.

Winner shouldnt get the advantage of counter picking a counter pick. It isn't fair for the loser.
My point exactly. This is assuming that every variation outright counters some other variation on every other character. That's not a game with 90 characters, that's a game with 3 archetypes and a rock-paper-scissors flow.

Some characters might suffer in certain MUs, but it be made better through one of their variations. This solves the counterpicking problem because, say F/T loses to Sub-Zero.
While the Ruthless and Lackey variations would fall way short if SZ picks Cryomancer or Unbreakable, Vicious would hold its own decently well against at least some of them.
So instead of watching Torr struggle in whats potentially a 3-7 MU, he has a chance to at least make it a 4-6. These numbers aren't official, but hypothetical.

This isn't the player who win getting advantage, rather its ensuring it doesn't become a first-to-win scenario, where the winner of the first game will win because he has more counterpicks than the loser did.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
I think winner should keep character and variation. It's simple, clear cut, and the way most games are ran.
Except variations are similar to what Melty Blood did (if not the exact same) and they followed the ruleset of allowing variation switches so long as a character change occurred with the loser.

This argument doesn't work because MKX is NOT like most games BECAUSE of variations. We should be looking at the games that have dealt with this before, instead.
 

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
Another wrong post with wrong info. You can change super in 3S. You can change ultra in SF4. You can change order in marvel. You can change moon in melts blood. You can change shit (to an extent) in any other game where shit can be changed.
Another wrong post? I've never been to a tournament where the winner of a match was able to change their SA in 3s, ultra in SF4 or order/groove in CVS2. I don't play the other games so I don't know.
 

Jim

Emperor of the Moon
Serious question for those who want variation lock:

Do you really want to have a game with 90 characters?
I think that is what we are getting that either way. With variant lock the loser has already fought that character, with variant free they could be fighting someone new.

To me if you say why variant lock I say why character lock then? I'm open to hearing reasons on both but right now I think the best thing for tournaments is both locked for the winner.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Another wrong post? I've never been to a tournament where the winner of a match was able to change their SA in 3s, ultra in SF4 or order/groove in CVS2. I don't play the other games so I don't know.
That's actually super surprising. Because everyone I've been to allow this.
 

EMPEROR PRYCE

WAR SEASON "THE WEAK EXPOSED!"
Except variations are similar to what Melty Blood did (if not the exact same) and they followed the ruleset of allowing variation switches so long as a character change occurred with the loser.

This argument doesn't work because MKX is NOT like most games BECAUSE of variations. We should be looking at the games that have dealt with this before, instead.
Well if we want a ruleset agreed upon before release, there is no comparing this to other games. We don't know how match ups will be effected by variation switch.

My point is, the winner being able to switch his toolset to work the match in his favor is unfair to the loser. It will promote rock paper scissor gameplay and won't prove who the better player is, it'll prove who made the smarter counterpick. Sure blind pick exists but once the meta of the game develops, that wont matter much because counter picks will be more predictable, therefore countering the counter will be easier.
Just explaining why i dont like this idea just seems like a fight at the character select screen.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Well if we want a ruleset agreed upon before release, there is no comparing this to other games. We don't know how match ups will be effected by variation switch.

My point is, the winner being able to switch his toolset to work the match in his favor is unfair to the loser. It will promote rock paper scissor gameplay and won't prove who the better player is, it'll prove who made the smarter counterpick. Sure blind pick exists but once the meta of the game develops, that wont matter much because counter picks will be more predictable, therefore countering the counter will be easier.
Just explaining why i dont like this idea just seems like a fight at the character select screen.
It's no surprise it'll change matchups. As stated before, those games had way more changes to characters between variations than what MKX will even have, based on what we know. Down to actual mechanical changes, actually. They still ran on variation switch rulesets.
 
I feel like "doing character lock till we know more about variations" is the same as "banning Interactables till we know more about injustice."
This is pretty much how I feel. I really do understand where people are coming from with the idea of playing it safe and starting with variation lock...but I also think that our community will be much more open to the idea of transitioning to variation lock rather than vice versa. If we start the game with variation lock....I strongly suspect it will eventually die with it even if its worse off for it. Does anyone think that if we'd banned interactibles from the start that we would have ever eventually decided to walk that decision back? I sure don't think so.

If you're asking me personally, No, they shouldn't. I don't think the winner should get to change anything that could alter the matchup in any way even a miniscule amount. You won one way, you have to defend that win the same way.



The semantics of how its done is irrelevant. Competitive Melee requires you to literally turn half the game off, reduces the stage selection by half and have a gentleman's agreement on several other things that could still potentially happen. Every other scene has resetting cabs / consoles, putting in codes, banning characters and moves, and whatever else it takes to uphold the rules for decades, so the notion that in game restrictions / allowances are some iron clad rule is counter productive. If we base our rules solely on what the game allows then every MK ever has allowed winner to completely reselect everything. Does anyone think that's okay?
Either way, you're all too caught up on my evil ryu example to actually address the point. Should the winner be allowed to change the match up (in any way) on win? I say no. And if you say yes, where's the line? Is it one move? Three or more moves? Walk speed? The name under the life bar? What?
It should be obvious to anyone that its impossible to have a straightforward concrete answer to that question. Its a case by case problem/solution.

The point I'm making is that while you can and should strive to find analogs and precedent within existing games its never straightforward and its intellectually dishonest to make an apples to oranges comparison like the one you made. They are far from the same thing, but the variation system has more in common with ultra select system than evil ryu/ryu akuma/oni if for no other reason because they are both universal mechanics that affect every character rather than a select 2 or 3.z

EDIT:

Except variations are similar to what Melty Blood did (if not the exact same) and they followed the ruleset of allowing variation switches so long as a character change occurred with the loser.

This argument doesn't work because MKX is NOT like most games BECAUSE of variations. We should be looking at the games that have dealt with this before, instead.
Does anybody know a guy who knows a guy who could get an explanation from the melty blood community for why this decision was made, because I really am curious. Again, it seems like it was mostly an arbitrary choice in the capcom community rather than a carefully thought out design....I'm really curious what they think.
 
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AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
I think winner should keep character and variation. It's simple, clear cut, and the way most games are ran.
Winner shouldnt get the advantage of counter picking a counter pick. It isn't fair for the loser.
Giving a character a projectile.. or a command grab.. or a teleport.. or even a command dash will change the way the character is played entirely, essentially making it a new character. You cant switch characters if you win.
Let's treat each variation like a different character and keep it simple. I'm sure it'll be easier for everyone that way lol
Simple yes. Better is still debateable.

I feel like you haven't read my posts. In all scenarios I suggested the loser gets to counterpick everything after the winner picks. The rules for changing winner variation only apply if the loser picks a different character entirely.

So if you pick Kano A and I pick Cassie A, you win, I pick Cassie B, you can't switch variations.

You see. Loser always gets the counter pick in my scenario.
 

cyke_out

Noob
Another wrong post? I've never been to a tournament where the winner of a match was able to change their SA in 3s, ultra in SF4 or order/groove in CVS2. I don't play the other games so I don't know.
Then those tournaments weren't using the most commonly accepted rules. It's all in the Evo rule list. Games with character options allow the winner to change things up- to a point. That is a fact. Now the extent of how much each change affects each game is up to interpretation, but people need to stop citing wrong examples as a basis of thier view point.