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no more useless moves pls

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
I believe there are some moves that seem "useless" only because there are some other moves "overpacked" with many beneficial properties (see Mileena's d4 in MK9 for example).
NRS can simply nerf...or just avoid giving too many properties on certain moves/strings so that almost everything can be "useful" at some degree.
Although I have to admit, it's very rare in a fighting game character to not have one or two (sometimes more) completely useless moves.
That's inevitable ofc. But as some people noticed over a year ago during IGAU era, it's kind of NRS style to make some moves really good with almost no downsides while shafting others. It's not like NRS have no idea what they are doing either, but some of those decisions look really weird.
 

Pterodactyl

Plus on block.
Dear NRS, please stop putting variety and creativity in your games. All these options are getting in the way of everyone playing the game the exact same way.

signed,
your smallest consumer base
You're one of the smarter guys on this forum, so this is actually shocking to me.

Did you not consider the fact that a creative variety of moves could also be useful?

I don't even get what you're even trying to say with that post.

Did you assume that "make every move have a use" meant "make every move the same"?

I believe there are some moves that seem "useless" only because there are some other moves "overpacked" with many beneficial properties (see Mileena's d4 in MK9 for example).
NRS can simply nerf...or just avoid giving too many properties on certain moves/strings so that almost everything can be "useful" at some degree.
Although I have to admit, it's very rare in a fighting game character to not have one or two (sometimes more) completely useless moves.
I don't know about anyone else but when I say useless I don't mean obsolete, I mean actually terrible and without function against even semi-competent players.

---

I honestly can't believe that there is even an ounce of opposition in this thread.

Why would you not want every move to have a clear and useful function as well as being competent at performing that function when used correctly?
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Every fighting game have at least one useless move.
Ibuki's tsujigoe move os so useless, that move should've allow Ibuki to use jump attacks from ir, os being throw invincible on startup.

Skarlet b24 doesn't have a real use which annoying.
 

Shark Tank

I don't actually play these games
Having moves with more unique properties can cut down on completely unviable moves. May at the very least make them situational vs utter dogshit. Ofcourse better foresight on a characters gameplan helps too.
 
It's useless to the competitive community, for people who just play, it's a cool looking move. Everyone who's not competitive doesn't care you can poke between a string.
Yeah and those casuals would be pissed if we couldn't poke between the string.


Oh wait nope. That's wrong. They're casuals. They don't care either way, so whats the harm in trying to make sure the strings you include actually have a purpose. Strings with no unique advantage that can be poked out of, and moves with no unique advantage that are negative on HIT really shouldn't exist. Both can be designed for (the first would exist for combo's or maybe trap situations, and the second for juggles or because of good on block data), but just having them as they were in 9 means they basically wasted time even animating them.

And for what it's worth, i feel like injustice was....kinda better about this(at least on the characters who felt finished). Hopefully it means they're learning. I don't expect everything to work(even games that are better about this tend to have a few), but there really were too many in 9 and injustice.

edit- i'm shocked on some of the responses on this. Seriously guys?

What we want them to do-
String 1- good block pressure, weak damage
String 2- risky but a good punish/read tool
String 3- great on block but almost no damage potential outside of chip
string 4- space creator

with some of them comboing better than others and some giving up damage for hard knockdown or better position or whatever.

What we're afraid they'll actually do-
String 1- good block pressure, can't be punished, high damage, leads to combos, great combo finish with hard knockdown and good damage, all while curing world hunger.

Strings2-4: autoposts embarrassing childhood videos of you on youtube.

Now granted obvious hyperbole, and I don't expect them to get it right the first time, but this is what it boils down to. Which of those situations has more variety? It's sure as hell not the second one.

I don't expect them to be psychic, so yeah the launch is going to be meh, but continued support means that they can assess the meta as it's developed(3 or even 6 months to start, and then maybe more frequent after that), and make changes based on that.

As for casuals vs competitive people, there's very viable ways to do this sort of thing. While we'll never have the purchasing power of the casual community, and tie in DLC will reign supreme because of that, they can still do balance updates because frame data is in some ways the least work intensive thing to change.

The real issue is the amount of money it takes to get patches approved, so if you just do what SF has been doing, and maybe do an expansion pack for 10-20 every year and a half or so, with decent patches in between, you can absolutely see a real profit, as one or two characters can draw in casuals, and the comp community will eat it up, for SUBSTANTIALLY less work, and if you don't like that model it sure as hell seems like KI is doing something right.

I get why these business plans don't change, but honestly, with just a few decent frame data changes in MK9, you could essentially add characters to the roster for the competitive crowd, or really just add new moves(because barka up 4 might as well not be a thing, and with just some mild changes it could be). I really think the over focus on DLC winds up on them missing out on easy money from the competitive crowd.
 
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DOOMSDAY-15RUS-

i'LL DESTROY YOU ALL
there are much more useless normals in usf4, like 6+ different hits in air per character, at least 3 of them always useless
 
Yeah and those casuals would be pissed if we couldn't poke between the string.


Oh wait nope. That's wrong. They're casuals. They don't care either way, so whats the harm in trying to make sure the strings you include actually have a purpose. Strings with no unique advantage that can be poked out of, and moves with no unique advantage that are negative on HIT really shouldn't exist. Both can be designed for (the first would exist for combo's or maybe trap situations, and the second for juggles or because of good on block data), but just having them as they were in 9 means they basically wasted time even animating them.

And for what it's worth, i feel like injustice was....kinda better about this(at least on the characters who felt finished). Hopefully it means they're learning. I don't expect everything to work(even games that are better about this tend to have a few), but there really were too many in 9 and injustice.

edit- i'm shocked on some of the responses on this. Seriously guys?

What we want them to do-
String 1- good block pressure, weak damage
String 2- risky but a good punish/read tool
String 3- great on block but almost no damage potential outside of chip
string 4- space creator

with some of them comboing better than others and some giving up damage for hard knockdown or better position or whatever.

What we're afraid they'll actually do-
String 1- good block pressure, can't be punished, high damage, leads to combos, great combo finish with hard knockdown and good damage, all while curing world hunger.

Strings2-4: autoposts embarrassing childhood videos of you on youtube.

Now granted obvious hyperbole, and I don't expect them to get it right the first time, but this is what it boils down to. Which of those situations has more variety? It's sure as hell not the second one.

I don't expect them to be psychic, so yeah the launch is going to be meh, but continued support means that they can assess the meta as it's developed(3 or even 6 months to start, and then maybe more frequent after that), and make changes based on that.

As for casuals vs competitive people, there's very viable ways to do this sort of thing. While we'll never have the purchasing power of the casual community, and tie in DLC will reign supreme because of that, they can still do balance updates because frame data is in some ways the least work intensive thing to change.

The real issue is the amount of money it takes to get patches approved, so if you just do what SF has been doing, and maybe do an expansion pack for 10-20 every year and a half or so, with decent patches in between, you can absolutely see a real profit, as one or two characters can draw in casuals, and the comp community will eat it up, for SUBSTANTIALLY less work, and if you don't like that model it sure as hell seems like KI is doing something right.

I get why these business plans don't change, but honestly, with just a few decent frame data changes in MK9, you could essentially add characters to the roster for the competitive crowd, or really just add new moves(because barka up 4 might as well not be a thing, and with just some mild changes it could be). I really think the over focus on DLC winds up on them missing out on easy money from the competitive crowd.
Perfect characters suck and are boring. Vanilla KL. Their objective is to create a fun game this stuff should come second.
 
Perfect characters suck and are boring. Vanilla KL. Their objective is to create a fun game this stuff should come second.
That was my entire point. Too often they make perfect characters by making one string vastly too good to the point that it obsoletes entire other moves, while some moves are just so bad they can't be used. Even on the non perfect characters you have this issue, and it makes them not fun. The example is just an example. Obviously we don't wnat every character able to cover every option.
 

Pterodactyl

Plus on block.
Perfect characters suck and are boring. Vanilla KL. Their objective is to create a fun game this stuff should come second.
This is stupid, why would you want your character to have moves that don't work instead of moves that do work?

There is no answer to that question besides "I don't want my character to have moves that are completely and utterly without purpose or use" that wouldn't be completely idiotic.

If you're going to make a fighting game, make every character as viable as possible.

People should be able to pick up any character and do any move and be able to find a legitimate use for it that doesn't rely on luck.


You people are literally saying "I want nothing instead of something."
 
Sub zero ice puddle anyone?
^^^

rofl this scrub obviously never heard of the shoryuken prison

@OP how do you expect NRS to carry out your wish? you expect them to have perfect foresight for the game, how the meta will turn out or something? there's no possible way to listen to this request lol
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
@OP how do you expect NRS to carry out your wish? you expect them to have perfect foresight for the game, how the meta will turn out or something? there's no possible way to listen to this request lol
Well, considering how pointless some moves were in MK9, this request, while impossible to satisfy perfectly, kinda makes sense overall. Again, we don't expect miracles, but some issues moves from MK9 had could be avoided.
 
It's useless to the competitive community, for people who just play, it's a cool looking move. Everyone who's not competitive doesn't care you can poke between a string.
It's stupid you can easily do both... you could have 8 useful strings on the character and the game would look cooler for pros adn noobs. You can create a move that looks a certain way and than manufacture a use for it by altering it's properties, giving it something special.
 
Who are the characters that legitimately have no useless moves in MK9?



It would just be a tie between Baraka's u4 and Ermac's lift.
Baraka's up 4 is a special case, I love that move.. it's so hilarious and fun to hit someone with... It's probably my favorite move in all of mk9

I actually kind of like @imblackjames idea.... Troll moves could be fun... But i tihnkthere too many moves that aren't trolly but just crappy.
 
Dear NRS, please stop putting variety and creativity in your games. All these options are getting in the way of everyone playing the game the exact same way.

signed,
your smallest consumer base
I don't like this logic, It's entirely possible to satisfy ever consumer base and NRS does an excellent job doing this. Fostering a successful competitive environment is an untapped market and can be done in these cases with minimal cost and without sacrificing mainstream appeal. Even if you have low odds for growth, it's important from a marketing standpoint to maximize every opporunity which is cost-effective because that grants you the highest net potential growth in comparison to costs. A competitive consumer base is also far more loyal and consistent and predictable. Games like league of legends have shown this market is real, who knows what the potential for growth.

That being said, it is kind of funny to have the small base complaining like this... I wouldn't take it too seriously, but if i was NRS , and i beleive they understand this... and it's more complicated than that, they truly appreciate passion for their games and probably enjoy watching people untap it's potential and see what people can do it. I think they get that part of it, I think they want to make as complete of a game as possible and make it different.


They also probably lurk this site if they are smart because maybe there are some good ideas on here, plus they see us whining about balance and this is a good metric for them to measure when they are patching early on.
 
Yeah and those casuals would be pissed if we couldn't poke between the string.


Oh wait nope. That's wrong. They're casuals. They don't care either way, so whats the harm in trying to make sure the strings you include actually have a purpose. Strings with no unique advantage that can be poked out of, and moves with no unique advantage that are negative on HIT really shouldn't exist. Both can be designed for (the first would exist for combo's or maybe trap situations, and the second for juggles or because of good on block data), but just having them as they were in 9 means they basically wasted time even animating them.

And for what it's worth, i feel like injustice was....kinda better about this(at least on the characters who felt finished). Hopefully it means they're learning. I don't expect everything to work(even games that are better about this tend to have a few), but there really were too many in 9 and injustice.

edit- i'm shocked on some of the responses on this. Seriously guys?

What we want them to do-
String 1- good block pressure, weak damage
String 2- risky but a good punish/read tool
String 3- great on block but almost no damage potential outside of chip
string 4- space creator

with some of them comboing better than others and some giving up damage for hard knockdown or better position or whatever.

What we're afraid they'll actually do-
String 1- good block pressure, can't be punished, high damage, leads to combos, great combo finish with hard knockdown and good damage, all while curing world hunger.

Strings2-4: autoposts embarrassing childhood videos of you on youtube.

Now granted obvious hyperbole, and I don't expect them to get it right the first time, but this is what it boils down to. Which of those situations has more variety? It's sure as hell not the second one.

I don't expect them to be psychic, so yeah the launch is going to be meh, but continued support means that they can assess the meta as it's developed(3 or even 6 months to start, and then maybe more frequent after that), and make changes based on that.

As for casuals vs competitive people, there's very viable ways to do this sort of thing. While we'll never have the purchasing power of the casual community, and tie in DLC will reign supreme because of that, they can still do balance updates because frame data is in some ways the least work intensive thing to change.

The real issue is the amount of money it takes to get patches approved, so if you just do what SF has been doing, and maybe do an expansion pack for 10-20 every year and a half or so, with decent patches in between, you can absolutely see a real profit, as one or two characters can draw in casuals, and the comp community will eat it up, for SUBSTANTIALLY less work, and if you don't like that model it sure as hell seems like KI is doing something right.

I get why these business plans don't change, but honestly, with just a few decent frame data changes in MK9, you could essentially add characters to the roster for the competitive crowd, or really just add new moves(because barka up 4 might as well not be a thing, and with just some mild changes it could be). I really think the over focus on DLC winds up on them missing out on easy money from the competitive crowd.

I am perfectly fine with overpowered moves, just give them massive cooldowns or use limits like let's say, League of Legends, or traits in injustice... that way their over-poweredness is balanced by the fact that their use is limited. PLUS, if they are easy to use, it draws in CASUALS more, becuase they feel more powerful(and the game is more diverse) playing it, as opposed to powerless due to the fact that they are lost trying to control the game... which could make both the competitive aspect and casual aspect more intriguing...

Multiple traits essentially, is what i am promoting. Or multiple specials outside of normal specials that have cooldowns...

but hey, what the fuck do i know.
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
PLUS, if they are easy to use, it draws in CASUALS more...
I'd like to point out that it works both ways here. You can check out any community that isn't focused on competitive gaming (like Steam forums for IGAU and MK9) and you'll see a lot of people complaining about being beaten by "effortless stuff".
Obviously, putting a limit on those options, like cooldown (IGAU), charges gained through different means (KI), meter (like, everywhere) would tone that down, but, again, this works both ways.

Anyways, I feel like this approach is actually oversimplification of real issue of designing gameplay that is appealing to more than just competitive crowd.
 

RYX

BIG PUSHER
^^^

rofl this scrub obviously never heard of the shoryuken prison

@OP how do you expect NRS to carry out your wish? you expect them to have perfect foresight for the game, how the meta will turn out or something? there's no possible way to listen to this request lol
okay, this post isn't that difficult to understand and I'm not sure why people keep misinterpreting it

there is very rarely a situation where move with long start ups, no form of block advantage to speak off, sometimes leaves YOU punishable on HIT becomes strong in the meta. if you can find me a move to the contrary then I'll accept your argument.
 
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STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
Perfect characters suck and are boring. Vanilla KL. Their objective is to create a fun game this stuff should come second.
It's a little odd that you're trying to use vanilla KL as an example here because the same crowd that were QQ'ing over him essentially had nothing to say about Sonya, simply because her non-useful moves were more apparent.

Despite that, she has been statistically superior to KL in every revision of MK9.
 

DreadKnight1

Beaten, by this mere man
I want 2 swag strings, both slightly negative on block and safe. One is a combo starter and one is a combo ender. Is that too much to ask?
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
I want 2 swag strings, both slightly negative on block and safe. One is a combo starter and one is a combo ender. Is that too much to ask?
But then they aren't just swag strings anymore, especially since they would actually be used by people and won't be rare sight :p

Although high damage and cool looking combo ender on a setup character would be pretty swag. People will rarely go for it (only to finish a round) and thus it won't entirely lose its novelty.
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
okay, this post isn't that difficult to understand and I'm not sure why people keep misinterpreting it

there is very rarely a situation where move with long start ups, no form of block advantage to speak off, sometimes leaves YOU punishable on HIT becomes strong in the meta. if you can find me a move to the contrary then I'll accept your argument.
I will point this much out; start-up isn't a failsafe diagnostic, depending on the other properties of the move.

I mean, if there was anyone on Tekken Zaibatsu who wanted to get into MK9, and the only information I gave them about Baraka was that his U3 is a +10 on block low crush that launches up against the wall, jaws would drop tenfold.

But on the contrary, this is Baraka we're talking about, lol...

And hell, CSZ's U4 is pretty much pringles by itself, but when cancelled, leads to some of the best bomb/oki setups in the game, just a shame that his bombs aren't particularly reliable.

As for moves that are punishable on hit (I'm pretty sure there aren't any in Injustice), you have to remember how much of a salvage operation there was when NRS called in the guys they did to evaluate MK9, there was no way they could've deciphered every move with questionable frame data over the course of 5 days. There's much better resources this time around. But that doesn't mean Cage should only have F33B3 because it covers the same purposes that the rest of his strings do.
 

coolwhip

Noob
I don't like this logic, It's entirely possible to satisfy ever consumer base and NRS does an excellent job doing this. Fostering a successful competitive environment is an untapped market and can be done in these cases with minimal cost and without sacrificing mainstream appeal. Even if you have low odds for growth, it's important from a marketing standpoint to maximize every opporunity which is cost-effective because that grants you the highest net potential growth in comparison to costs. A competitive consumer base is also far more loyal and consistent and predictable. Games like league of legends have shown this market is real, who knows what the potential for growth.

That being said, it is kind of funny to have the small base complaining like this... I wouldn't take it too seriously, but if i was NRS , and i beleive they understand this... and it's more complicated than that, they truly appreciate passion for their games and probably enjoy watching people untap it's potential and see what people can do it. I think they get that part of it, I think they want to make as complete of a game as possible and make it different.


They also probably lurk this site if they are smart because maybe there are some good ideas on here, plus they see us whining about balance and this is a good metric for them to measure when they are patching early on.
What the fuck happened to your grammar/spelling? And by that, I mean it's actually good!

OK, I'm just being a dick but it caught me off guard, lol.
 

RYX

BIG PUSHER
I will point this much out; start-up isn't a failsafe diagnostic, depending on the other properties of the move.

I mean, if there was anyone on Tekken Zaibatsu who wanted to get into MK9, and the only information I gave them about Baraka was that his U3 is a +10 on block low crush that launches up against the wall, jaws would drop tenfold.

But on the contrary, this is Baraka we're talking about, lol...

And hell, CSZ's U4 is pretty much pringles by itself, but when cancelled, leads to some of the best bomb/oki setups in the game, just a shame that his bombs aren't particularly reliable.

As for moves that are punishable on hit (I'm pretty sure there aren't any in Injustice), you have to remember how much of a salvage operation there was when NRS called in the guys they did to evaluate MK9, there was no way they could've deciphered every move with questionable frame data over the course of 5 days. There's much better resources this time around. But that doesn't mean Cage should only have F33B3 because it covers the same purposes that the rest of his strings do.
there's a difference between those and the moves I'm talking about though.

they have some function, even if they're considered pretty crappy at what they do, they have useful scenarios. But then you have something like Noob's F43 which is a double high that you can only combo into teleport. There's no function that it serves in a practical setting because anything it can actually do, other strings will do marginally better.

Then you have something like (again) Baraka's U4, which is just all kinds of bad.

These are the moves I'm talking about -- stuff that's either just overshadowed in every aspect or just flat out bad. But you can very easily make these moves good in some perspective with a tweak to frame data or properties on hit. If Baraka's U4 allowed for some weird, gimmicky OTG setup, then awesome. It'd have a purpose in that it can set up FOR the OTG.
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
there's a difference between those and the moves I'm talking about though.

they have some function, even if they're considered pretty crappy at what they do, they have useful scenarios. But then you have something like Noob's F43 which is a double high that you can only combo into teleport. There's no function that it serves in a practical setting because anything it can actually do, other strings will do marginally better.

Then you have something like (again) Baraka's U4, which is just all kinds of bad.

These are the moves I'm talking about -- stuff that's either just overshadowed in every aspect or just flat out bad. But you can very easily make these moves good in some perspective with a tweak to frame data or properties on hit. If Baraka's U4 allowed for some weird, gimmicky OTG setup, then awesome. It'd have a purpose in that it can set up FOR the OTG.
I hear that, but again, I think that's just a circumstance of MK9's QA in particular.
 
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trufenix

bye felicia
I guess if you want to miss the point of the thread entirely, that's up to you.

You can make moves look good and creative while still making them actually useful in a way that isn't the equivalent of teabagging.

Conversely, I'd find it far more engaging as a player to have more moves with a clear purpose, because those are the ones that usually evolve to become better.
Well, in your contempt for being satirized you missed the point of my post too, so now we're even. Point is; Not every move is created for competitive purposes. Most of them are created because somebody said hey, it would be cool if .... Then they are thought out, designed, sketched, mocapped and animated before they are finally handed to balance to tweak into an overhead or safe string or counter poke. Because one guy doesn't get to make decisions for the entire game. If balance can't turn x move into the perfect anti air or low high mixup for the character, they don't always get to say lets take this completely back to the drawing board cause Check will never fit it in a combo video. They get to add/remove frames and get cute with collision boxes to try and make it work. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. And remember, they start this shit YEARS before anybody here even gets their hands on it. Way back in March when Kano's new knee got put in the game, the character its going to create a bad matchup for wasn't even started yet. Should they just get rid of it cause who knows if its too strong or too weak?

Even if balance gets to write a checklist at character concept and say well I need an anti air with the feet, and a forward moving string involving the arms, two low super fast sweeps, and a projectile thrown in a high arc, they still have to work within the confines of whatever the rest of the team gives them. When the rest of the team gives them shit animations, you wind up with Shazam. You do your best to make it work cause its your job, but at the end of the day, it still looks fucking retarded and it doesn't work. Now you get to wait two years for RYX to tear you down on the forum and pray Boon lets you make a patch.

tl;dr, there's no way for design / animation to know what's going to happen in QA, and there's no way for balance to predict every possible move use ever post release. When somebody says Ermac should have a move where he floats then falls on his ass, you just make a move where Ermac floats and then falls on his ass. And if it turns out to have 60 frames of start up and be completely unsafe on hit, so be it. Ermac is still a pretty solid character otherwise and nobody (except whiny tournament players) is going to bust your balls for giving a character moves they can't land.
 
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