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Big Question No1 is seeming to bring up!! MKX tournament rules wise.

ChatterBox

Searching for an alt.
I know no one responded directly to me, but I'm putting it out there that I changed my mind. Winner should be locked to both character and variation, based on what we know at the moment.

I plan on asking my local scene to try character lock and regular style tournaments at the beginning to see which are more fun.
 

trufenix

bye felicia
If you don't understand why precedent set by other games that have had a long tournament history you shouldn't be discussing this issue.
You know what man, you are always popping up claiming you know some shit and spouting no real information at all, so pretty please, extol me with the "precedent set by other games that I don't understand". Tell me about this long tournament history I've forgotten in all my years. I had this long ass post typed up explaining myself and my position but the reality is, you're not even going to read it because you're already pretty fucking sure of yourself, so please just tell me what I don't know so I can get some knowledge. Go on. Do it.
 

Filipino Man

Retirement my ass
It ignores the precedent set by other games where even more stuff changes & switching between character variation was allowed.
In Marvel, you have to keep your assists.

I don't know if they FOLLOW that rule anymore, but it's written in the rules.
 
Trust me dude I wish I live in an ideal world,everything went my way,etc.OK here's a scenario: So lets say this type of rule is put into effect,what's stopping people who won a match that's 5-5 changing there variation and making into a 6-4,7-3 or 8-2 all base on what they see their opponent.

To keep things simple and in order just lock the winner from picking something new and give the loser the chance to make something happen ;)
Well in the rule set we're discussing the winner can't change unless the loser does first and can only change their variation at all if the opponent completely changes characters....so the only way that *could* happen is if the opponent knowingly put themselves in that position...and that's kind of on them.


You've made my point entirely, an ultra MAY change the matchup, a variation WILL, every time. This is why we cannot allow WINNERS to reselect. If you have the potential to counter my counter then why even let me switch at all? Instead of asking the winner to find new strategies to deal with a potential counter pick, you are simply giving them license to dump the tools they won with entirely and play with different ones. Because if you beat me with a grappler, and I go back to character select to bring out my sub who is better against grapplers what was the point of that if you are also just as free to switch to your other variation which is not a grappler at all? This is a scenario we have already seen. There is a version of Ferra / Torr with command grabs and armor, there are two without. There is a version of Kano with grabs and parries, there are two without. These are different match ups. These are different matchups.

You can play devil's advocate if you like, but I know you're a good enough player to see the difference between fighting a character that has a teleport, or a full screen command grab, or an unblockable hellfire type trap, etc vs one that does not. These are already confirmed scenarios. Fido already claimed to land a 51+% bnb off trance that only applies to Quan Chi's summoner. Are you really going to tell me that isn't significant enough to change an MU? Would you really be comfortable putting an MMH who has OH teleport in the same slot on the matchup chart as one who did not? That's what we're talking about it.

Regardless, the point nobody on the pro-choice side is addressing is WHY? Why should the winner be allowed to counter pick in any way at all? Even blind? Even random? What does that add competitively to the game at all? Does it add tension for the players or hype for the crowd if inbetween every match both players go back to cselect and play this dopey game of paper rock scissors to see how can outfox who with a blind cursor? No, it doesn't. Its just going to allow dominant characters with multiple successful variations maintain a counter pick stranglehold on the rest of the cast.
I think you're still missing one crucial detail of how the ultra selection rule works:

The loser still gets final say in the counterpick because after both characters are selected, the winner *has* to select the style they are going to use FIRST and the loser is then allowed to counterpick it, and they can only change variations at all if the opponent changes characters.

As far as the "why" goes, I would be curious to ask what the logic behind ultra select is in the capcom community, but in this case it sounds like an interesting way to take advantage of the unique design of the game and its balancing structure.
Your scenario that you describe at the end is plausible but its also worst case. I think its also possible that it would promote character variety and evolve the meta in an interesting way because it might make finding a hard counter to a character much more difficult since you have to be thinking about countering their entire toolset.
 
In Marvel, you have to keep your assists.

I don't know if they FOLLOW that rule anymore, but it's written in the rules.
Thank you, I tried looking that up earlier and I couldn't find an answer yes or no towards that. I knew you had to keep the same order and characters but it seemed more grey on that area. Question: you'd probably know, why in SFIV are you allowed to change Ultras?
 
To clarify my position somewhat and explain where I'm coming from to people who think what I'm proposing is insane....let me explain the worst case scenario I'm slightly concerned about (again, this is just speculation on what could be):

I'm somewhat concerned that in NRS effort to increase character variety in tournament and give the character loyalists more options they may inadvertently planted the seed for a massive counterpicking frenzy at the highest level down the line. What I mean is, because they've gone the route of breaking down each character into 3 styles it could be that they're now less concerned about each style being relatively balanced in relation to every other one because the option to actually pick a different style for you character is there.
In theory that's perfectly sound....but in high level tournament play it may result in hugely lopsided fights and runs to counterpicking after each match as we switch from one 8-2 matchup to another one. Doesn't sound like fun to me.

Obviously I have no evidence that will be the case and I understand people not wanting to make rules to fight hypothetical scenarios like that (or hell, maybe they're even ok with the scenario I'm presenting)...just something I've been thinking about.
 

SHAOLIN

内部冲突
I know no one responded directly to me, but I'm putting it out there that I changed my mind. Winner should be locked to both character and variation, based on what we know at the moment.

I plan on asking my local scene to try character lock and regular style tournaments at the beginning to see which are more fun.
Yes x100 to this! Discussing stuff like this early in your local scene just makes it easier to focus on the game itself once it comes out.

To clarify my position somewhat and explain where I'm coming from to people who think what I'm proposing is insane....let me explain the worst case scenario I'm slightly concerned about (again, this is just speculation on what could be):

I'm somewhat concerned that in NRS effort to increase character variety in tournament and give the character loyalists more options they may inadvertently planted the seed for a massive counterpicking frenzy at the highest level down the line. What I mean is, because they've gone the route of breaking down each character into 3 styles it could be that they're now less concerned about each style being relatively balanced in relation to every other one because the option to actually pick a different style for you character is there.
In theory that's perfectly sound....but in high level tournament play it may result in hugely lopsided fights and runs to counterpicking after each match as we switch from one 8-2 matchup to another one. Doesn't sound like fun to me.

Obviously I have no evidence that will be the case and I understand people not wanting to make rules to fight hypothetical scenarios like that (or hell, maybe they're even ok with the scenario I'm presenting)...just something I've been thinking about.
I actually understand where you are coming from.You're just looking at the big picture once the game has somewhat been flush out and you get stuff like what you mention in your post.....right?
 

Bildslash

Goro Lives 
Someone should keep tabs of all posible rulings, then make a new thread with a poll.

Also, a lot of you are forgetting the stage factor. Unfortunately there's a lot of factors to MU's, but better to deal with them right now than later on when people start badmouthing the game on twitter and whatnot just because they get salty.
 

ChatterBox

Searching for an alt.
@Shaolin 19 Thanks! My plan for MKX is to do a lot more scene building and communicating with the community.

I'm really digging this discussion here...when people are reading and responding intelligently. I've made up my mind for the moment, although I like @Eric Z19 and his idea for these rules too. This whole thing is real early to come to a concrete decision that will still apply even a week after release. Thus I'm glad we can talk about it and weigh the pros and cons of each rule set so once the game comes out I can keep this in the back of my mind.

For now I see no reason not to do stage rules like MK9 and Injustice. Loser keeps everything the same, or picks new stage, or a new character and a new random stage.
 
Why do people think variations are going to be some kind of "rock paper scissors"?

I don't think this will lead to a counter picking fest. I mean, you'd think we'd see that in Injustice if that was the case. I mean, is picking up Aquaman really that much harder than changing from 1 variation to another of the same character?
 

trufenix

bye felicia
I think you're still missing one crucial detail of how the ultra selection rule works:

The loser still gets final say in the counterpick because after both characters are selected, the winner *has* to select the style they are going to use FIRST and the loser is then allowed to counterpick it, and they can only change variations at all if the opponent changes characters.
I know the rule. I played 3s (well, 2i but same principle) competitively. But again, adding a blind stipulation doesn't actually change anything. You've just forced me as the winner to guess, and guessing is dumb. Guessing wastes time. If I have to play "guess the counterpick", I'm just going to pick the option that worked last time, and pray you don't have a counter pick. Because either I already know you don't have an answer for it (because you didn't lead off with it), or I don't want to take the risk that you have an answer for my alternative choice (because it wasn't the choice I led off with).

As far as the "why" goes, I would be curious to ask what the logic behind ultra select is in the capcom community, but in this case it sounds like an interesting way to take advantage of the unique design of the game and its balancing structure.
Your scenario that you describe at the end is plausible but its also worst case. I think its also possible that it would promote character variety and evolve the meta in an interesting way because it might make finding a hard counter to a character much more difficult since you have to be thinking about countering their entire toolset.
The "why" in capcom games is simple. Its allowed because it doesn't matter. Same with every switch thats ever been allowed in every fighter ever. If the winner switching "something" is harmless, it is allowed. Wether it be costumes / aesthetics, or relatively minor / situational gameplay changes. As long as its harmless, its allowed. In the case of SF4, the chance of the selected ultra being the deciding factor in a match is so small in comparison to all the other variables who cares if I change it. Yes, some are more helpful than others in certain match ups. But just selecting Zangief's U2 isn't as big a deal as picking Zangief instead of, I dunno, Hakan. Picking U2 isn't going to guarantee I even get to use it, because you may know all about it and just never let it happen, or you just lose before I ever earn it. Perhaps, if every ultra was a beautiful snowflake with distinct gameplay roles, but that's not the way it works in SF4 (or any game thats ever tried it or ever will). Why?

a) most characters don't have two useful ultras. One of them is usually FAR and away better than the other, either by virtue of combo/setup ability (Yun U1) or by covering a hole in their gameplan (Dhalsim U1), leaving the other choice as either a novelty (Ryu's U2) or very very very specific matchup tool (Fei's U2). Thus, if I play Fei, the odds are ALWAYS in my favor to go U1, regardless of who you pick and what Ultra you select. Maybe you and I are super evenly matched, and you play Viper and U2 is literally the only weapon I have to turn the tables, but this scenario is SO rare its not even worth banking on. Not for most of the cast.

b) almost no matchups are decided by your ultra v y ultra, so who cares who picks first. What matters is what character you picked, which happens BEFORE I pick my ultra. As a Dan player my U1 has one use. Fireball reads. I read a fireball, you dun fucked up. But if you pick anybody with a shit fireball game, I go Ultra 2. No debate. Even if you don't. Even if you pick Ryu. I know that you know that I know what my U1 does. So picking U1 is effectively calling my shot. Its resting my entire precious ultra bar on you throwing a bad fireball. Why would choose that instead of U2, which adds a couple hundred damage to almost any corner touch?

c) most players only have 1 or 2 mains. In a fantasy world, every player would be PL or Infilitration and have 4 - 5 pocket characters. But we don't. When Daigo walks up to the sticks, I already know who he is going to pick (within a reasonable margin). Even if I don't, when I see you in my pool, I'm going to research you and find out. Okay, does this guy use my U1 characters or U2 characters. And like point b, you probably already know me too. If you don't open with your counter pick, I could maybe assume its coming and do a quick switch, but then whats stopping you from jumping right back to the same character when I can afford to drop this game and then pull the same shit to you in a match?

d) I already beat you once with what I picked the first time. Even with the loser blind pick random hooey rule, we still start off with the fact that I beat you with one gameplan. I'm going to need a STRONG reason to change it. My motivations can only be a guaranteed counter pick (which blind rules destroy) or because it was super close or I'm bored or something else that I absolutely cannot bank on, any other time, my gut instinct (as the winner) is to just repick what worked and see what you come up with.

But again, these are all reasons why nobody gives a shit if you repick your ultra after a win and compared to losing a teleport or gaining a command grab is almost nothing. Ultra combos give SF4 characters 1 (maybe 2 in a close match) opportunities to use a projectile, counter, anti air, grab, whatever, that they otherwise might not have. Dhalsim gets one get off me, Juri gets one custom combo, ryu gets one free 300+ damage uppercut, etc. If the difference between Ken's U1 and U2 was a different as the dif between say, picking Ryu or Ken no toournament would run that way. Variations give MKX characters that kind of variety. It turns a character who could previously zone into one with grabs, or one with low damage mixups into one with high damage bnbs. Allowing variation select is not only going to waste time, its going to slow meta development WAY down because nobody is going to drill down an actual matchup when there's 9 possible ways the matchup can go.
 
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haketh

Noob
You know what man, you are always popping up claiming you know some shit and spouting no real information at all, so pretty please, extol me with the "precedent set by other games that I don't understand". Tell me about this long tournament history I've forgotten in all my years. I had this long ass post typed up explaining myself and my position but the reality is, you're not even going to read it because you're already pretty fucking sure of yourself, so please just tell me what I don't know so I can get some knowledge. Go on. Do it.
In Marvel, you have to keep your assists.

I don't know if they FOLLOW that rule anymore, but it's written in the rules.
I'm talking games like Melty Blood which have a similar system that's changes even more than variations in MK do. Meter, Guard Mechanics, Jump mechanics, and a ton of stuff changes between phases. When a person wins a match & the other player changes character the winner is able to change Moon's but only if the loser changed character, this was allowed because of how different Moon's were you would get double counterpicked in a sense. So far from what we've seen the variations do change a fair bit about the characters but nothing system wise so I see no reason going by precedent of games like MKX to stay with straight up character lock.

Allowing variation select is not only going to waste time, its going to slow meta development WAY down because nobody is going to drill down an actual matchup when there's 9 possible ways the matchup can go.
How is allowing Variation switch going to waste time when it's something that's a quick decision and done at the character select screen with no wasted time & I don't see how meta is going to slow down. You're still gonna have people sticking with specific variations because that's what suits them and develop that.
 
Why do people think variations are going to be some kind of "rock paper scissors"?

I don't think this will lead to a counter picking fest. I mean, you'd think we'd see that in Injustice if that was the case. I mean, is picking up Aquaman really that much harder than changing from 1 variation to another of the same character?
Don't ever let anyone say that I don't bleed for Injustice....but lets keep it real here: the only reason we're not seeing more of what you're describing is because the game is in a death spiral competitively. If the numbers were better and people actually saw a future for it beyond MKX I think you'd be seeing much more of the scenario you describe. If you're not convinced then just try asking the socal scene why nobody is counterpicking with Aquaman.
 
I know no one responded directly to me, but I'm putting it out there that I changed my mind. Winner should be locked to both character and variation, based on what we know at the moment.

I plan on asking my local scene to try character lock and regular style tournaments at the beginning to see which are more fun.
each variation is different enough to be considered it's own character in my opinion, it shouldn't even be a debate. Maps should be double random...

half these variations are going to be poopy anyways.
 
I know the rule. I played 3s (well, 2i but same principle) competitively. But again, adding a blind stipulation doesn't actually change anything. You've just forced me as the winner to guess, and guessing is dumb. Guessing wastes time. If I have to play "guess the counterpick", I'm just going to pick the option that worked last time, and pray you don't have a counter pick. Because either I already know you don't have an answer for it (because you didn't lead off with it), or I don't want to take the risk that you have an answer for my alternative choice (because it wasn't the choice I led off with).
Ok....I apologize but I think you're still not getting it. The rule as I've understood it requires the losing player to pick their character first *before* a change of ultra (or variation in our case) can actually be made. In this scenario there is no "guessing" whether or not a counterpick is going to be made. Its already happened. Now its up to the player to understand what variation offers the best chance against the 3 possible variations that the opposing player has available to them once the winning player picks. That isn't guessing, its application of match-up knowledge.


The "why" in capcom games is simple. Its allowed because it doesn't matter. Same with every switch thats ever been allowed in every fighter ever. If the winner switching "something" is harmless, it is allowed. Wether it be costumes / aesthetics, or relatively minor / situational gameplay changes. As long as its harmless, its allowed. In the case of SF4, the chance of the selected ultra being the deciding factor in a match is so small in comparison to all the other variables who cares if I change it. Yes, some are more helpful than others in certain match ups. But just selecting Zangief's U2 isn't as big a deal as picking Zangief instead of, I dunno, Hakan. Picking U2 isn't going to guarantee I even get to use it, because you may know all about it and just never let it happen, or you just lose before I ever earn it. Perhaps, if every ultra was a beautiful snowflake with distinct gameplay roles, but that's not the way it works in SF4 (or any game thats ever tried it or ever will). Why?

a) most characters don't have two useful ultras. One of them is usually FAR and away better than the other, either by virtue of combo/setup ability (Yun U1) or by covering a hole in their gameplan (Dhalsim U1), leaving the other choice as either a novelty (Ryu's U2) or very very very specific matchup tool (Fei's U2). Thus, if I play Fei, the odds are ALWAYS in my favor to go U1, regardless of who you pick and what Ultra you select. Maybe you and I are super evenly matched, and you play Viper and U2 is literally the only weapon I have to turn the tables, but this scenario is SO rare its not even worth banking on. Not for most of the cast.

b) almost no matchups are decided by your ultra v y ultra, so who cares who picks first. What matters is what character you picked, which happens BEFORE I pick my ultra. As a Dan player my U1 has one use. Fireball reads. I read a fireball, you dun fucked up. But if you pick anybody with a shit fireball game, I go Ultra 2. No debate. Even if you don't. Even if you pick Ryu. I know that you know that I know what my U1 does. So picking U1 is effectively calling my shot. Its resting my entire precious ultra bar on you throwing a bad fireball. Why would choose that instead of U2, which adds a couple hundred damage to almost any corner touch?

c) most players only have 1 or 2 mains. In a fantasy world, every player would be PL or Infilitration and have 4 - 5 pocket characters. But we don't. When Daigo walks up to the sticks, I already know who he is going to pick (within a reasonable margin). Even if I don't, when I see you in my pool, I'm going to research you and find out. Okay, does this guy use my U1 characters or U2 characters. And like point b, you probably already know me too. If you don't open with your counter pick, I could maybe assume its coming and do a quick switch, but then whats stopping you from jumping right back to the same character when I can afford to drop this game and then pull the same shit to you in a match?

d) I already beat you once with what I picked the first time. Even with the loser blind pick random hooey rule, we still start off with the fact that I beat you with one gameplan. I'm going to need a STRONG reason to change it. My motivations can only be a guaranteed counter pick (which blind rules destroy) or because it was super close or I'm bored or something else that I absolutely cannot bank on, any other time, my gut instinct (as the winner) is to just repick what worked and see what you come up with.

But again, these are all reasons why nobody gives a shit if you repick your ultra after a win and compared to losing a teleport or gaining a command grab is almost nothing. Ultra combos give SF4 characters 1 (maybe 2 in a close match) opportunities to use a projectile, counter, anti air, grab, whatever, that they otherwise might not have. Dhalsim gets one get off me, Juri gets one custom combo, ryu gets one free 300+ damage uppercut, etc. If the difference between Ken's U1 and U2 was a different as the dif between say, picking Ryu or Ken no toournament would run that way. Variations give MKX characters that kind of variety. It turns a character who could previously zone into one with grabs, or one with low damage mixups into one with high damage bnbs.
I'll accept the argument that variations are a much bigger deal then ultras, but I have a hard time accepting that its allowed because "it doesn't matter". If it didn't matter why are there defined rules for when a player can and cannot change their ultra? Why not just let them do it whenever?

Allowing variation select is not only going to waste time, its going to slow meta development WAY down because nobody is going to drill down an actual matchup when there's 9 possible ways the matchup can go.
....That sounds more like a feature to me then a bug.
 

Jim

Emperor of the Moon
My two bits:
Winner = Character+variant lock
Loser = Can change either or neither or both
Stage = Random if loser changes either option, if not rematch

My main reason. Simplicity. Trying to regulate very specific rules of if the loser picks then winner can pick a different one but must pick it prior to the loser but after the loser chose the character will be a nightmare. Seems needlessly complicated. I say if it isn't exactly what they won with lock the winner. You want to counter pick after that? Go ahead, if you lose now your opponent is locked just like you were. The advantage of the variant is much of the basics are the same, so you will know the character better than a completely new character as an alt. Pressure will be on to learn all your variants, I think that will make things more interesting.

Some people are talking about precedent. Well we already have that for the NRS scene. MK9 costume locks for Cyrax/Sektor (don't remember if any others were locked). Other games have reasons they allow same character but different property switches? Neat, explain how those rules work for this scene, not how they work for the other scene.

I'm always open to changing my mind about something but if nothing else the more complicated something is the more people will fuck it up on a large scale like a tournament.

One last point, a few people have been saying wait and see until everyone gets hands on. That won't settle things. 16 bit and I have both tested and last I talked we weren't on the same page about variant lock. I'm not speaking for him but I think he is in the winner can change variant camp. The fact is we won't know how good those counter picks are until a few months into the game's life. I say we settle earlier than later. And my vote is keep it simple and lock both for winner.
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
This thread again.

Okay, I'll just say it again, I predict that it will be basically standard rules (loser gets to repick) with every variation treated as character.
Really, the only thing this "variations" jazz does is allowing people to pick up secondaries for bad matchups a bit easier while looking more like character loyalist to boot. The latter part is actually bigger than it seems because people will be sticking to most normals and some specials, and it means more fleshed out neutral game, sooner.
 

ChatterBox

Searching for an alt.
Seems like a lot of people have their heart set on encouraging character loyalty and variation changing. I'm definitely in that camp.

It shouldn't be up to the rules of the game to discourage counter picking, it's up to the designers (NRS) to make these variations fullfill their stated intention: give every character the adaptability to be competitively viable.
 

Filipino Man

Retirement my ass
Thank you, I tried looking that up earlier and I couldn't find an answer yes or no towards that. I knew you had to keep the same order and characters but it seemed more grey on that area. Question: you'd probably know, why in SFIV are you allowed to change Ultras?
You're allowed to change ultras in Street Fighter because if you ever played on an arcade cabinet, it allows you to change your ultra after every new opponent.
 

aldazo

Waiting for Havik
If everyone gets forced to use every variation of their character, the existence of the system as options for your character will be justified and a better look for the game. Otherwise it just becomes a game with 60+ "characters", with certainly over half of them not seeing use.
Exactly, that's why I think NRS (through the community "heads") will push for character lock instead of variation lock. I feel very confident this will be the standard rule and to be honest it's something I think stream monsters like me will enjoy, the diversity of char loyalists is something that will hype up people. :).
 

Flagg

Noob
Variations shouldn't be locked in.

Character locks should exist for the winning player in a tournie.

Stages should 100% be random this time.
 

Hidan

Where the hell is Reiko's wheel kick
Lock winner in everything.

We can't have counterpicking scenarios after every match. Where's the skill then? There are generic moves and tools you can count on even on a bad matchup. I mean if someone irrelevant with the case reads this thread he would think variations are an auto-pilot option or something

It's a FIGHTING game, not a turn-based rpg (don't get me wrong I love pokemon... till 3rd gen... max)
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Why do people assume there will be counter picks built into everyone? Like unless you are playing lackey Torr and fighting a commando Kano, you should be fine.