What's new

Official UMK3:TE Changelog and Discussion Thread

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Bro, yes it is Kabal. But it is H Smoke as well. I know you like H Smoke a lot and he is probably your fav character, but he is just as broken as Kabal.

Kabal may slightly edge him, but not by much at all. So statements like this are implying that Kabal is much more broken than H Smoke and that is completely wrong. They are both in the Same tier, Above everyone else.

Yes Kabal is the best but H Smoke is right next to him. So all these people that defend H Smoke and go oh no, Kabal is way more broken.

Your talking to a guy who has seen H Smoke win more tournaments than Kabal, or any other character. Fastest walk speed, 50% combos off of roundhouse, punishers, anything. Let's please stop with this. Im not saying he is better than Kabal, I never have, I feel like your inversely implying I am saying or believing that.

They are both a HUGE problem.

Let's be honest, Kabal is much easier to fix than H Smoke. Kabal can be made Not Broken and viable easier of the two. Tt is a much much harder task with H Smoke. Inherently based on his design as is, this is my point as well.
They already nerfed H.Smoke, and now Ermac and Scorpion are better. Also, it isn't easier to nerf Kabal. His design is broken, not Smokes. Smoke did too much damage, and had too fast of walkspeed, that's it. His pop-up is shared by Ermac, and now Scorpion can out damage him. The only thing Smoke has left that makes you want to pick him is the invisibility they gave him.

Kabal is still good though, still top 3 even. His design is hard to nerf, because it isn't just one or two things you can fix. His spin obviously needed a nerf, and his damage needed a slight nerf, but his zoning game is still strong and he's still an all around character. iAFBs, now with a quick ground saw that hits low? And that doesn't disappear when he's hit, shit stays there forever lol. H.Smoke is done, he no longer needs any nerfs or buffs. Kabal may need some tweaks yet.
 

9.95

Noob
Bro, yes it is Kabal. But it is H Smoke as well. I know you like H Smoke a lot and he is probably your fav character, but he is just as broken as Kabal.

Kabal may slightly edge him, but not by much at all. So statements like this are implying that Kabal is much more broken than H Smoke and that is completely wrong. They are both in the Same tier, Above everyone else.

Yes Kabal is the best but H Smoke is right next to him. So all these people that defend H Smoke and go oh no, Kabal is way more broken.

Your talking to a guy who has seen H Smoke win more tournaments than Kabal, or any other character. Fastest walk speed, 50% combos off of roundhouse, punishers, anything. Let's please stop with this. Im not saying he is better than Kabal, I never have, I feel like your inversely implying I am saying or believing that.

They are both a HUGE problem.

Let's be honest, Kabal is much easier to fix than H Smoke. Kabal can be made Not Broken and viable easier of the two. Tt is a much much harder task with H Smoke. Inherently based on his design as is, this is my point as well.
LOL, I wasn't implying that you were saying that. What I'm saying is that they are arguably the Akuma of UMK3. Also, since the emergence of these REALLY high level GJer, I've seen far more Kabals and Kitanas win than H.Smoke. You see a lot of H.Smoke because of his easy, high damage combos, yes, but unless paired with an equally skilled GJer, I'd venture to say that AT LEAST 85% of all H.Smoke players can't deal with the GJ pressure of Kitana or Kabal.
 

9.95

Noob
Sorry, but a higher damage combo off a jump starter is not alone what is going to make him better than a character like H Smoke. Otherwise, Jax or Sheeva would be the best character in UMK3, alone based off of that. Doesn't work like that at all...
Dub, have you SEEN the new Scorpion? His old HP,HP, u+LP is now a mini pop up! Any pressure into that, paired with spear and combo ender is like 40% or more! All Scorpion needed for him to be just as broken as H.Smoke was a pop up, and now he has one!
 

dubson

Noob
They already nerfed H.Smoke, and now Ermac and Scorpion are better. Also, it isn't easier to nerf Kabal. His design is broken, not Smokes. Smoke did too much damage, and had too fast of walkspeed, that's it. His pop-up is shared by Ermac, and now Scorpion can out damage him. The only thing Smoke has left that makes you want to pick him is the invisibility they gave him.

Kabal is still good though, still top 3 even. His design is hard to nerf, because it isn't just one or two things you can fix. His spin obviously needed a nerf, and his damage needed a slight nerf, but his zoning game is still strong and he's still an all around character. iAFBs, now with a quick ground saw that hits low? And that doesn't disappear when he's hit, shit stays there forever lol. H.Smoke is done, he no longer needs any nerfs or buffs. Kabal may need some tweaks yet.
The spin + glitch jabs is what made Kabal over the top broken. Glitch jabs have been dealt with. Deal with the spin and his damage and I find now, after dealing with GJ's, H Smoke by design will be the better character.

Teleport, pop-up, anti-airs, punishers… His ground/footsie game is much better than Kabal. Teleport is one of the best moves in the game. Teleports can much more easily deal with Kabal ground game with no GJ's in the picture...

You don't have to believe me… just wait and see. It was Glitch Jabs, damage and spin for kabal. Much easier to make non broken than current H Smoke… i highly disagree...
 
Last edited:

dreemernj

Ambassador
what makes u think so?how does one check if it's accurate?
Try to tap and release block right before any attack hits you. It'll hit.

Blocking in the 2D MK games looks at whether the button is being pressed, not the animation. So if you aren't holding the button, you're basically not blocking. The blocking animation is more of a clue to your opponent that you are holding block. A clue that you used to be able to get around by mashing punches while holding block. Also why you can block stuff while stumbling away from some attacks. The button being pressed is all it really cares about.

I think when you do the no-blocking versus code you still do the animation if you press block but it doesn't help you. It's basically the same deal. The animation is irrelevant and only partially connected to the fact that you are blocking.
 

dubson

Noob
LOL, I wasn't implying that you were saying that. What I'm saying is that they are arguably the Akuma of UMK3. Also, since the emergence of these REALLY high level GJer, I've seen far more Kabals and Kitanas win than H.Smoke. You see a lot of H.Smoke because of his easy, high damage combos, yes, but unless paired with an equally skilled GJer, I'd venture to say that AT LEAST 85% of all H.Smoke players can't deal with the GJ pressure of Kitana or Kabal.
It takes a great amount of skill to play like that, though. Much more than people give credit for or acknowledge. If they were to play H Smoke just as optimally as Kitana it would be a no contest. Kabal…. I see your points. Currently, no question the best. But H Smoke is right behind… no question.
 

dubson

Noob
Dub, have you SEEN the new Scorpion? His old HP,HP, u+LP is now a mini pop up! Any pressure into that, paired with spear and combo ender is like 40% or more! All Scorpion needed for him to be just as broken as H.Smoke was a pop up, and now he has one!
To be fair, no, I have seen next to nothing on the New Scorpion. I have been going off of your assessment of him almost 100% to be honest, with H Smoke though, I have been following extremely close and definitely voicing my opinion on him, as I really want them to get him right and honestly feel he will be the hardest to "fix"… I don't want this hack to come out too fast…
 

9.95

Noob
The spin + glitch jabs is what made Kabal over the top broken. Glitch jabs have been dealt with. Deal with the spin and his damage and I find now, after dealing with GJ's, H Smoke by design will be the better character.

Teleport, pop-up, punishers… His ground/footsie game is much better than Kabal. Teleport is one of the best moves in the game. Teleports can easily deal with Kabal ground game.
Kabal was broken by a number of things. First, he has one of the longest (if not the longest) reaching jabs in the game putting him just about out of range to counter if you block a GJ with the exception of a sweep which can be spun on reaction to the sweep animation.

If you didn't know, Kabal can REVERSE spin a teleport, effectively negating the move. Any Kabal worth his salt will block and punish or reverse spin on sight. @Shock has done that to me more times than I care to remember, and he's done it to me in MKT, where reactions have to be faster.

Kabal's new zoning tools make him a beast.
Trying to bait him into a spin? Great, because when he's buffering a spin, he's also buffering ground saw which hits low, hope you predicted that.
Trying to counter zone him. With all Kabal's iAFB your only chance is a teleport because now he can iAFB and Ground Saw to check you like in MK9.

Nobody is telling you that H.Smoke WASN'T broken before. His nerfs, however, make him FAR less desirable to pick over Scorpion now.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
The spin + glitch jabs is what made Kabal over the top broken. Glitch jabs have been dealt with. Deal with the spin and his damage and I find now, after dealing with GJ's, H Smoke by design will be the better character.

Teleport, pop-up, punishers… His ground/footsie game is much better than Kabal. Teleport is one of the best moves in the game. Teleports can easily deal with Kabal ground game.

You don't have to believe me… just wait and see. It was Glitch Jabs, damage and spin for kabal. Much easier to make non broken than current H Smoke, sorry, I highly disagree.
By this logic, Ermac and Scorpion are also better characters, and since they are now better than Smoke in every way, Smoke is no longer the problem. H.Smokes footsie game is no different than Scorpions, especially with his walk speed getting nerfed. Kabal has all of that too, with the exception of a teleport, which he doesn't need. Smoke is 4th best to Scorp, Ermac, and Kabal, in UMK3:TE as it currently stands. And those 4 are not on top anymore, either.
 

dubson

Noob
By this logic, Ermac and Scorpion are also better characters, and since they are now better than Smoke in every way, Smoke is no longer the problem. H.Smokes footsie game is no different than Scorpions, especially with his walk speed getting nerfed. Kabal has all of that too, with the exception of a teleport, which he doesn't need. Smoke is 4th best to Scorp, Ermac, and Kabal, in UMK3:TE as it currently stands. And those 4 are not on top anymore, either.
Strong points. So yes, based on my points and yours, I would agree or believe Ermac and Scorpion, as well as H Smoke, will come out better than Kabal.
 

dubson

Noob
Kabal was broken by a number of things. First, he has one of the longest (if not the longest) reaching jabs in the game putting him just about out of range to counter if you block a GJ with the exception of a sweep which can be spun on reaction to the sweep animation.

If you didn't know, Kabal can REVERSE spin a teleport, effectively negating the move. Any Kabal worth his salt will block and punish or reverse spin on sight. @Shock has done that to me more times than I care to remember, and he's done it to me in MKT, where reactions have to be faster.

Kabal's new zoning tools make him a beast.
Trying to bait him into a spin? Great, because when he's buffering a spin, he's also buffering ground saw which hits low, hope you predicted that.
Trying to counter zone him. With all Kabal's iAFB your only chance is a teleport because now he can iAFB and Ground Saw to check you like in MK9.

Nobody is telling you that H.Smoke WASN'T broken before. His nerfs, however, make him FAR less desirable to pick over Scorpion now.
ofcourse I know he can reverse spin… it must be read though, as the teleporter is now playing him sub-optimally and predictable….

I have not debated that his spin move is completely broken. I stated, it is his biggest problem….

One badly timed iAF, though, could lead to a teleport -> combo…. He must be careful with these against a teleporter. They must definitely respect each other...

His jabs alone do not contribute to him being "broken"… great advantage, though. Not enough to make him broken, though. In conjunction with GJ's, and his spin, Even More of a Problem, and now were talkin….
 

mkholic

Noob
The animation is irrelevant and only partially connected to the fact that you are blocking.
i just couldn't believe Juggs didn't know that and it threw me off
in theory u don't need to hold block for more than 1 frame, and tapping has nothing to do with this
nevermind
 

Shock

Administrator
Premium Supporter
Scorpion and Smoke's damage output difference is negligible. There are instances where one gets higher damage than the other, and times where there damage is the same. The biggest difference is corner damage off a knee lift, where Smoke edges out Scorpion by I think 5%. Their knee lift starting damage is about identical. Their aa punish, Scorpion now edges Smoke out by 4%. If Smoke has invis and no air throw, Scorpion has air throw, it depends on the player in terms of which is more important. Overall, my point is damage is not the deciding factor between the two characters. Ermac always had higher damage potential than both of them, and now only slightly does. Ermac is the hardest hit male ninja damage wise by far. They all have TP nerfs, and in addition, Ermac's has a longer cool down. Not sure what I think about this yet.

Also as for block checking, there is a three frame buffer for block. If you don't block within three frames of contact, you get hit, if you unblock within three frames of contact, you get hit. This is like 1/20 of a second.

Even before glitch jabs were used, say pre 2010, Kabal vs Human Smoke was a debated topic. IMO, Kabal is/was the better character. He can't force mistakes out of Kabal outside of extremely basic pressure in which Kabal can take over at any time. I'm not really going to get into theory fighter, this should really be to review changes, post concerns, and not get too deep into match ups. I know more players are getting beta builds and they should just play until they find glitches or abusability for now. We can deal with balancing at will.
 

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
Nobody is telling you that H.Smoke WASN'T broken before. His nerfs, however, make him FAR less desirable to pick over Scorpion now.
HSmoke has it easier to get damage off of his launcher than Scorpion (I know, not really a factor in the long run). Plus the options that HSmoke has to end his combos coupled with invisibility (which the "can't block" status may change) are more than Scorpion has. Scorpion's U+LP ender also knocks away if it is the 8th hit or more. I am certain that HSmoke is still the better character, but not by much.
 

REO

Undead
Damage comparison for those who are wondering on Scorpion vs Human Smoke:


Combo comparisons off:

- Knee starters
- JK~teleports
- Jump-in punches
- Raw spears
- Corner


They both win in damage (not by much) in different areas, like Shock said.
 

Shock

Administrator
Premium Supporter
Damage comparison for those who are wondering on Scorpion vs Human Smoke:


Combo comparisons off:

- Knee starters
- JK~teleports
- Jump-in punches
- Raw spears
- Corner


They both win in damage (not by much) in different areas, like Shock said.
Basically yeah, a couple were not maxed out here and there but the difference is a few % max.
 

mkholic

Noob
Also as for block checking, there is a three frame buffer for block. If you don't block within three frames of contact, you get hit, if you unblock within three frames of contact, you get hit. This is like 1/20 of a second..
there is a delay of 3 frames before animation takes place, if u press block on any frame after the first active frame of individual move is presented, u get hit
u don't ever need to hold block for more than single frame (~1/55 of a second)
this is how i thought it works