In fighters my strengths are reading people VERY well (which is why im very good at traps and post knockdown situations), being the most patient and lame player in the Milky Way, and great defense. I am technical to a point but I rely on my ability to make reads over everything else.
IMO im a very good psychological player. This site will say im the worst at everything but you cant get consistent results in ANY game where your character loses 7-3 to close to half the cast without being great with mind games.
The weakness to exploit on me is that my footsies are B/B+ while many players that are top are A/A+ to S. Its IMPOSSIBLE to exploit this when I have an Ice Clone which is why Sub-Zero was such a good fit. B+ footsies + Ice Clone = S+ footsies.
In the case of Aquaman... He is basically a pure footsie character. He does not work off of traps, post knockdown mind games, etc... Its footsies and Trident rush. Theo has great footsies and Aquaman complements his strengths a lot better than mine.
Not exactly. I kan't even determine Brady's level of skill in either area to be honest.
Aquaman as a character doesn't really force the need to be technical so Theo is able to focus on his Psychological side.. Theo was smart on his choice of a character.
This is also why I used Batman as an example. Aquaman just doesn't warrant enough of either skill to merit much discussion.
Do you consider good spacing and footsies a technical skill? I think it is, but going by what you're saying in these couple of posts and the OP, you're glossing over it (I could be wrong). I can see why, since it's less tangible than something that may require execution, but it's even more important in reality, because you can stick to the basics on a technical level, but rely on footsies, spacing and so on to win.
Also, can you define what you mean by psychological? Are you referring to having a mental edge, being able to handle pressure, etc... Or the ability to think, make the right reads, know match-ups, etc...?
There's no way @GGA Max max agrees that bane vs batman is 5-5. All jokes aside, and everything besides that match up, I'm starting to see eye to eye with you.
I think the current results show its batman's favor, but I think Bane's might need to level up and then it'll be considered a 5-5. We'll see. I really don't know. The Bane meta of juicing up while being zoned is a complete waste of time. This needs to change.
We have ~6 months before this game is supposedly gunna die. We'll see.
I really like this thread by the way, and it makes me think. But it's such a complicated issue and things overlap.
I wonder about MK9 for instance. Counter-poking was the most important aspect of the game. When we say a player is "technical" we tend to think of high execution stuff, but what about someone who had insanely good counter-poking? Surely that's technical (if it were that easy more people would have been good at it). For instance, both Tyrant and Dizzy played low execution characters. Anyone can pull off Jax or Cage combos within a combined 30 minutes in the lab. But both players had godlike counter-poking which in my mind, and for the purposes of that game, made them technical. Though you could also claim that just makes them fundamentally sound (which is true, too). I don't know, it's hard to really say one way or the other.
mmm Reo was far better in both aspects in last 2012 - 2013 mk9 time frame. Also has nothing to do with him playing Kabal. He is THE Kabal, was top 8 at every tourney he went to except 2 for a reason. PL has 2 evo wins and i think 1 or 2 other wins, Reo is on another lvl even though PL is still solid, but imo it's not a good comparison toward the end of the game Reo was just on point in all aspects of the game
In fighters my strengths are reading people VERY well (which is why im very good at traps and post knockdown situations), being the most patient and lame player in the Milky Way, and great defense. I am technical to a point but I rely on my ability to make reads over everything else.
IMO im a very good psychological player. This site will say im the worst at everything but you cant get consistent results in ANY game where your character loses 7-3 to close to half the cast without being great with mind games.
The weakness to exploit on me is that my footsies are B/B+ while many players that are top are A/A+ to S. Its IMPOSSIBLE to exploit this when I have an Ice Clone which is why Sub-Zero was such a good fit. B+ footsies + Ice Clone = S+ footsies.
In the case of Aquaman... He is basically a pure footsie character. He does not work off of traps, post knockdown mind games, etc... Its footsies and Trident rush. Theo has great footsies and Aquaman complements his strengths a lot better than mine.
I'll agree with you there for sure. You were amazing with your sub zero corner setups with the looping jik where most players couldn't seem to get that to work and went for more of a spacing based corner game. Have you ever considered playing a different character in injustice? Maybe like sinestro where he can be pretty lame, but he also has the vortex where you have the ability to make those cut and dry reads on your opponent?
I'll agree with you there for sure. You were amazing with your sub zero corner setups with the looping jik where most players couldn't seem to get that to work and went for more of a spacing based corner game. Have you ever considered playing a different character in injustice? Maybe like sinestro where he can be pretty lame, but he also has the vortex where you have the ability to make those cut and dry reads on your opponent?
The neutral game is not my strong point. This is why im so good post knockdown. I make great reads, play solid defense, but am only above avg/marginally good in the neutral game where others at the top are great/exceptional. In a way, the clone setups were similar to post knockdown situations which is why I was so good with them.
I don't downplay I'm honest the last matchup chart I made every representative from every character agreed with me, if anything people thought I was up playing and said they think he loses to their character lol
The only reason someone would think I'm downplaying is because they're still stuck in the past where they think Batman only loses to Aquaman and nobody else, but that is not the case
Do you consider good spacing and footsies a technical skill? I think it is, but going by what you're saying in these couple of posts and the OP, you're glossing over it (I could be wrong). I can see why, since it's less tangible than something that may require execution, but it's even more important in reality, because you can stick to the basics on a technical level, but rely on footsies, spacing and so on to win.
Also, can you define what you mean by psychological? Are you referring to having a mental edge, being able to handle pressure, etc... Or the ability to think, make the right reads, know match-ups, etc...?
Footsies is more of a technical skill but in Injustice it doesn't really exist. Footisies are more subtle and Injustice only really deals with absolute spacings not the subtle changes in spacing. If I were to describe Injustice footsies I would just kall it spacing because that's what it is. I didn't go into too much detail over any particular skill I just proposed a dichotomy for which we kould evaluate skills. Some are more technical, others are more kreative. None are absolutely one or the other.
Psychological includes the ability to handle pressure, and adapt to situations you weren't prepared for by learning to let go of your lack of skill and switch to a different game. It is also, the ability to "smell the blood" so to speak and be able to tell when someone falls for something, not because it is kommon but because you feel it. Psychological is more "feel" in my definition.
You kan sometimes describe pattern recognition in two ways. Technical: kount the times they saw a mistake. Psychological: feel that they saw mistakes.
I think the current results show its batman's favor, but I think Bane's might need to level up and then it'll be considered a 5-5. We'll see. I really don't know. The Bane meta of juicing up while being zoned is a complete waste of time. This needs to change.
We have ~6 months before this game is supposedly gunna die. We'll see.
Psychological includes the ability to handle pressure, and adapt to situations you weren't prepared for by learning to let go of your lack of skill and switch to a different game. It is also, the ability to "smell the blood" so to speak and be able to tell when someone falls for something, not because it is kommon but because you feel it. Psychological is more "feel" in my definition.
You kan sometimes describe pattern recognition in two ways. Technical: kount the times they saw a mistake. Psychological: feel that they saw mistakes.
psychological definitely. i even know more cw tech than 16 bit from many sets with rainbowpride69 however my cw is ass and my fundamentals as a player aren't as good as that of bit. you could know tech for days but to have the mentality and experience of someone who has placed top 8 in a tonne of majors means a shit tonne more.
The neutral game is not my strong point. This is why im so good post knockdown. I make great reads, play solid defense, but am only above avg/marginally good in the neutral game where others at the top are great/exceptional. In a way, the clone setups were similar to post knockdown situations which is why I was so good with them.
Just go bane, fuck the neutral game. Lol no, but I see what you're saying. Sometimes there isn't a character there that fits you well in a game, and you just have to deal with it if you want to play.
psychological definitely. i even know more cw tech than 16 bit from many sets with rainbowpride69 however my cw is ass and my fundamentals as a player aren't as good as that of bit. you could know tech for days but to have the mentality and experience of someone who has placed top 8 in a tonne of majors means a shit tonne more.
Knowledge is a different thing all together as well. Knowledge does not fall into either kategory even though it applies to both. Knowledge is basically on another spectrum of judgment. Though usually, the more technical players are more knowledgeable.
Footsies is more of a technical skill but in Injustice it doesn't really exist. Footisies are more subtle and Injustice only really deals with absolute spacings not the subtle changes in spacing. If I were to describe Injustice footsies I would just kall it spacing because that's what it is. I didn't go into too much detail over any particular skill I just proposed a dichotomy for which we kould evaluate skills. Some are more technical, others are more kreative. None are absolutely one or the other.
I actually really disagree with this, especially with how high the level of play has risen to lately. The recent grand finals at WCW, for example, were quite a sight to behold in regards to technical and scientific gameplay.
Annotations:
1:58-Whiteboi crouches and then walks backwards, baiting the b12 from Theo and whiff punishing it
2:24-Theo makes a read on a walk forward, Whiteboi instead keeps his ground and nails another whiff punish
2:27-Theo activates Water Shield on wakeup. He has previously used this before as a means of blowing Whiteboi back when he jumps in with Splash. Whiteboi realizes this and goes for an empty jump as a means of calling Theo’s bluff. Theo quickly recognizes the play and dashes forward to get d1 xx trident rush for the chip death (Close)
2:49 to 3:05-Whiteboi is struggling to close in on Theo, who is using b2 to control the space directly in front of him. As soon as he builds a bar he gets in with MB shoulder and gets the chip out. After the spacing is reset, Whiteboi recognizes where he’s standing and walks back, which makes the b2 whiff and Theo is knocked down by a Shoulder whiff punish. Great adaptation from Whiteboi
3:18 to 3:20-Whiteboi hops over a MB B3 from Theo, then jumps to try and catch the backdash. He is able to recognize that Theo is hit by his j3 and then wisely jumps back to throw the interactible behind him to get even more damage from his sudden hit. Excellent spatial awareness by Whiteboi
7:31 to 7:33-Theo wakes up with Trident Rush. Whiteboi has successfully baited the wakeup, but realizes that he will double tap forward twice to still get his chip damage. Whiteboi jumps back and tosses the interactible behind him for a moderate punish. Again, excellent spatial awareness
7:48 to 7:51-Theo has blocked an Earthshaker and decides to spend a bar on MB B3 to absorb a follow-up d1 and steal himself some frames so he can get a Trident Rush. Whiteboi recognizes this and immediately holds back, then punishes when the MB B3 whiffs completely.
11:38 to 11:41-Theo has blocked an Earthshaker again. His back is to the corner, so he has no room to walk back from another d1 followup. Whiteboi walks back to bait a b12 from Theo, as he has before, and realizes Theo is content to crouch. He then makes a fairly safe bet with MB shoulder, but Theo jumps forward and hits 3, pulling himself up and over the MB shoulder for a full punish. The jump would also have been safe from Air Snatch at that range. Great spaced jump from Theo
11:48 to 11: 52-Theo goes for his patented B2 to catch any jump or forward movement into Trident Rush. Whiteboi throws a MB B3 to beat it and then immediately throws him back in the corner instead of taking the round. Excellent spatial awareness
12:33 to 12:36-Very intense ending. Theo goes for the Tree interactible and Whiteboi uses MB B3 to counter. The move is blocked, and Theo decides to bet the farm on a MB B3. The move would have moved out of the way of any D1 or F2 overhead attempt, would beat a jump forward and at least force a block if he didn’t move at all or dashed forward. The only possibility of escape would be a back jump, which Theo decided to risk. Great footsie read to swing the momentum completely in his favor
After watching this set from the commentary booth, I couldn't see why Theo and Whiteboi weren't considered two of the most technical players. Both show an absurd knowledge of where they need to stand, when they need to move back, and where to interact on the stages and what their options are at their best ranges. This is not something that comes easily; this requires a lot of studying of not only their own character but the other characters in the game to understand all of their various options. It is a very fine science, much like the neutral game is in any other fighter. To say "footsies don't exist in this game" to me is an insult to the work they have put in and how much awareness both players have of the screen and how their characters interact on it, which is what a loose definition of "Footsies" would be.
I actually really disagree with this, especially with how high the level of play has risen to lately. The recent grand finals at WCW, for example, were quite a sight to behold in regards to technical and scientific gameplay.
Annotations:
1:58-Whiteboi crouches and then walks backwards, baiting the b12 from Theo and whiff punishing it
2:24-Theo makes a read on a walk forward, Whiteboi instead keeps his ground and nails another whiff punish
2:27-Theo activates Water Shield on wakeup. He has previously used this before as a means of blowing Whiteboi back when he jumps in with Splash. Whiteboi realizes this and goes for an empty jump as a means of calling Theo’s bluff. Theo quickly recognizes the play and dashes forward to get d1 xx trident rush for the chip death (Close)
2:49 to 3:05-Whiteboi is struggling to close in on Theo, who is using b2 to control the space directly in front of him. As soon as he builds a bar he gets in with MB shoulder and gets the chip out. After the spacing is reset, Whiteboi recognizes where he’s standing and walks back, which makes the b2 whiff and Theo is knocked down by a Shoulder whiff punish. Great adaptation from Whiteboi
3:18 to 3:20-Whiteboi hops over a MB B3 from Theo, then jumps to try and catch the backdash. He is able to recognize that Theo is hit by his j3 and then wisely jumps back to throw the interactible behind him to get even more damage from his sudden hit. Excellent spatial awareness by Whiteboi
7:31 to 7:33-Theo wakes up with Trident Rush. Whiteboi has successfully baited the wakeup, but realizes that he will double tap forward twice to still get his chip damage. Whiteboi jumps back and tosses the interactible behind him for a moderate punish. Again, excellent spatial awareness
7:48 to 7:51-Theo has blocked an Earthshaker and decides to spend a bar on MB B3 to absorb a follow-up d1 and steal himself some frames so he can get a Trident Rush. Whiteboi recognizes this and immediately holds back, then punishes when the MB B3 whiffs completely.
11:38 to 11:41-Theo has blocked an Earthshaker again. His back is to the corner, so he has no room to walk back from another d1 followup. Whiteboi walks back to bait a b12 from Theo, as he has before, and realizes Theo is content to crouch. He then makes a fairly safe bet with MB shoulder, but Theo jumps forward and hits 3, pulling himself up and over the MB shoulder for a full punish. The jump would also have been safe from Air Snatch at that range. Great spaced jump from Theo
11:48 to 11: 52-Theo goes for his patented B2 to catch any jump or forward movement into Trident Rush. Whiteboi throws a MB B3 to beat it and then immediately throws him back in the corner instead of taking the round. Excellent spatial awareness
12:33 to 12:36-Very intense ending. Theo goes for the Tree interactible and Whiteboi uses MB B3 to counter. The move is blocked, and Theo decides to bet the farm on a MB B3. The move would have moved out of the way of any D1 or F2 overhead attempt, would beat a jump forward and at least force a block if he didn’t move at all or dashed forward. The only possibility of escape would be a back jump, which Theo decided to risk. Great footsie read to swing the momentum completely in his favor
After watching this set from the commentary booth, I couldn't see why Theo and Whiteboi weren't considered two of the most technical players. Both show an absurd knowledge of where they need to stand, when they need to move back, and where to interact on the stages and what their options are at their best ranges. This is not something that comes easily; this requires a lot of studying of not only their own character but the other characters in the game to understand all of their various options. It is a very fine science, much like the neutral game is in any other fighter. To say "footsies don't exist in this game" to me is an insult to the work they have put in and how much awareness both players have of the screen and how their characters interact on it, which is what a loose definition of "Footsies" would be.
I see what you mean. I kompletely retract that statement. Some characters just don't have that level of depth so I guess I was only looking at it through my perspective with one of my characters usually trying to overcome limitations and the other usually just dominating in the range game with little subtleness.
Aquaman mirrors are actually pretty footsie based. I don't know why I forgot about that.
PS: I've been out of the loop for a while so thanx for the video.
That's not true. I keep winning, but no other Batman has ever kept winning to make it up to me, which is why I've never fought another Batman in tournament before
There's no way @GGA Max max agrees that bane vs batman is 5-5. All jokes aside, and everything besides that match up, I'm starting to see eye to eye with you.
the last matchup chart I made every representative from every character agreed with me, if anything people thought I was up playing and said they think he loses to their character lol
