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Match-up Discussion "I think you underestimate me!" Joker Match-up Discussion Thread

Qwark28

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Kyu said:
This is implying that all Bane's are button happy. And yes 70% of the match for Joker probably is smart teeth placement. But that doesn't make it a 5-5 or a 6-4. Bane will eventually get in, and when he does you guess right or your lifebar is done. Vengeance, Kentucky, and I will stand beside the idea of it being a 7-3 matchup. If either of them start to beat me with Joker on a regular basis, I may reconsider it. Do you have psn by chance? I'd love to see the smart teeth placement they aren't quite pulling off yet.
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Nope, I'm on XBL.

It isn't implying that all Banes are button happy exactly because it accounts what happens when the Bane player is patient and also says IF they are button happy.

Bane of course will eventually get in, the thing is that I don't see how it's 7-3 when his pressure is timed and can be beat with smart jumps, parry and MB F3. His pressure is some of the best in the game but Joker is not someone with no defence or tools against him.
 
Kyu

Kyu

CHOO CHOO BANE TRAIN
Vengeance135 said:
I actually want to play you again tbh lol hmu later tonight and let's nullify that lag too so I can play a little better doooohhhhh
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I can't be one till sometime next week, very busy this week. I'd love to play you, and I'm not sure why it lagged last time but we will try.
 
The PantyChrist

The PantyChrist

Rest in Pantiez
My thoughts on the mu are similar to a dam with a crack in it. That is once bane gets momentum it gets ugly fast. I agree from range teeth are a useful tool because I definitely want to keep him out. And once he gets in you need to change your game up and it becomes largely just down to reads and mind games. It just so happens banes are better and he has easier access to his damage. Also another thing to consider is if he armors. None of his specials launch into combo, you just need to take the kd and techroll for space. Mid screen knockdowns are a mind game in his favor, but we do have options. D1 double punch is intueruptible. D2 Cmmd grab can be neutral jumped(crowbar is not throw immune fast enough for this gap) for full combo, d1 grab only works on block, b2 grab only works on block, um another scary one I don't know why banes don't use is the b11 tick throw on hkd because the mind game between b112, b1 dp, b11dp, andb11 grAb is mixups for days. But anyways our options midscreen are backdash, standblock, crouchblock, or neutral jump, but also when to do it. I wouldn't say parry is useless in this mu and can help break out of pressure if you notice patterns in their play. I also have some ideas about applying our own pressure on hkd.
Also out of all the potentially horrendous as annoying mu's this is one I actually enjoy playing, it's largely a footsies mu, albeit an unfair one as we don't have as much armor/ damage. I agree 6/4 or 7/3
 
Fromundaman

Fromundaman

I write too much.
I don't know why I was quoted at first for having notable Bane experience. I played Max the first time ever fighting the character and since then I've only had the chance to play mid-level Banes.

Things I've noticed playing the MU (Though might not apply at highest level):

-Teeth can be placed while other teeth are exploding so that one set covers the other. Bane can armor through it, but if I read that and do flower or D2>flower instead of another set of teeth I get a punish.

-D2>Flower, B1>flower and D1>flower are REALLY good for breaking armor.

-If you get a hit, extend your combo as much as possible and end it in a blockstring in order to maximize venom loss.

-If you get knocked down, start preparing for the next round.


Sonic Lionheart said:
Talk about the Nightwing match-up.
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Lol wait for me to finally finish my tournament write up before that blow up begins :p

*Grumble grumble* Out-zone Nightwing *grumble mumble*



Qwark28 said:
To add to this, what the fuck is "Joker pressure"?
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Against Bane? Not a goddamn thing. :(



Qwark28 said:
Bane of course will eventually get in, the thing is that I don't see how it's 7-3 when his pressure is timed and can be beat with smart jumps, parry and MB F3. His pressure is some of the best in the game but Joker is not someone with no defence or tools against him.
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Meaty D1 cancel and D2 cancels beat all of those tools on knockdown. While I did not know the MU at all when I played Max, this was one thing I learned the hard way. On knockdown he has something like a 6-way guessing game on us that is HEAVILY in his favor.
 
Qwark28

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Fromundaman said:
I don't know why I was quoted at first for having notable Bane experience. I played Max the first time ever fighting the character and since then I've only had the chance to play mid-level Banes.

Things I've noticed playing the MU (Though might not apply at highest level):

-Teeth can be placed while other teeth are exploding so that one set covers the other. Bane can armor through it, but if I read that and do flower or D2>flower instead of another set of teeth I get a punish.

-D2>Flower, B1>flower and D1>flower are REALLY good for breaking armor.

-If you get a hit, extend your combo as much as possible and end it in a blockstring in order to maximize venom loss.

-If you get knocked down, start preparing for the next round.



Lol wait for me to finally finish my tournament write up before that blow up begins :p

*Grumble grumble* Out-zone Nightwing *grumble mumble*




Against Bane? Not a goddamn thing. :(





Meaty D1 cancel and D2 cancels beat all of those tools on knockdown. While I did not know the MU at all when I played Max, this was one thing I learned the hard way. On knockdown he has something like a 6-way guessing game on us that is HEAVILY in his favor.
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Of course, I never denied that. Once he knocks us town he goes into 50/50 town with population: Joker.
 
Fromundaman

Fromundaman

I write too much.
I do want to make note of some things we do have on Bane though that I didn't put in my last post:

-Bane has to get in on us. Joker is good defensive character, so this actually works fairly well.

-Our combos are rather long and eat venom time. More importantly we can end a combo with ridiculous + frames and go straight into frametraps/blockstrings to eat even more venom time, or pressure the shit out of him if he went into debuff.

-We have multi-hitting moves and a quick special cancel to break armor.

-Teeth interrupt his command grab and allow us to get up first.

-We have OTGs which kind of allow us to get around the fact that he doesn't care *too* much about our knockdown game.



Some things Bane has on us that I didn't mention in the previous post:

-A fair number of frame traps just straight don't work on him thanks to armoring through them.

-His dashes are godlike.

-We can't pronounce his name correctly.



I do have to agree with PantyChrist though: Regardless what we label the MU as, it is fun.
 
StevoSuprem0

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Apologies for the hiatus!
Let's keep this moving along. Next up, I wanna do one where we are relatively in agreement, and we'll talk about all the relevant tech for those that are struggling with the matchup:


(another huge fucking picture... is there a way to resize these that I don't know about?)
Black Adam! (for you, @ThaShiveGeek) In a heavily normalized state, he is a much more manageable fight than in previous versions of the game, but can still be dangerous and has some pretty tricky tech.
@AK Smarrgasm anything you can contribute to the discussion would be much appreciated. Tag anyone else you guys want. What works well against Black Adam? What does Joker have to do differently in this fight as opposed to others? What do we need to watch out for? What can we abuse? Discuss!
 
Qwark28

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
I think 5-5, he can't anti air us, he can't zone us with lightning strike due to it being so slow, black magic is punishable from 3/4 screen, divekick and lightning isn't a mixup. Only thing he has going for him is that we can only turtle him when we have a decent lifelead, great meterless damage, decent trait mixups and good damage off of corner and midscreen ex divekicks setups. He doesn't really have anything dominant against us in footsies.
 
Vengeance135

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
My thoughts. I think 4-6, Black Adams jump arc is hella good in this MU. His J2 goes over Jokers J2 pretty consistently at their high points and leading up to it. Jokers jump 1 beats it sometimes but Adams hella active IJump1 beats Jokers everything in the air unless Joker is preemptively seeing it coming and Jumping back 3s his ass or something. D2'ing his jump arc is a pain in the ass due to his floaty jump and how his jump 2 is similar to Jokers in a sense that the hitbox moves throughout the duration from start up to finish, making it hella ambiguous at certain ranges. So I would say based off sets I've played and Lab scenarios Adam rules the air. His D2 is really good and extremely underrated, seriously check that shit out, so you can't just jump at him, you have to approach on the ground or use safe Jump options. His B2 also serves as a pretty viable AA when used correctly and is something to be respected in this MU. Adam lacks low moves besides slow lightning and d3 but is either plus or safe on his strings and normals meaning you have to fish for parries or just block until you know you can get out or strike fast enough to interrupt depending on what he's doing (lightning cancels from strings). His jump 2 divekick setups are for the most part easy to deal with unless cornered where they become imo more ambiguous. Joker can't really punish divekick at its lowest aside from seeing it and MB B3/F3 or punishing the backdash with revolver if seen coming. Mb Low lightning still trip guards Joker on third hit unless you have precise jump timing. Not that this matters unless he's on a health lead and your reactions are good enough to punish the start up preemptively. He has better use of trait and as Qwark said great meterless damage. Joker can be outzoned by a smart BA player that realizes this isn't prepatched Black Adam anymore. Imo I think Jokers strongest asset in the MU is when he knocks Adam down and/or has a decent health advantage and is with range to strike. Outside of Jokers strike range can be difficult for Joker due to what he has to respect, especially with health disadvantage. when Joker has health advantage he can play a bit more relaxed but would want to get it over quickly because Adam can change the tide with one good hit. @Qwark28 don't talk down to me like I'm an idiot because I know you will disagree with me. Be civil :joker:
 
StevoSuprem0

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Vengeance135 said:
My thoughts. I think 4-6, Black Adams jump arc is hella good in this MU. His J2 goes over Jokers J2 pretty consistently at their high points and leading up to it. Jokers jump 1 beats it sometimes but Adams hella active IJump1 beats Jokers everything in the air unless Joker is preemptively seeing it coming and Jumping back 3s his ass or something. D2'ing his jump arc is a pain in the ass due to his floaty jump and how his jump 2 is similar to Jokers in a sense that the hitbox moves throughout the duration from start up to finish, making it hella ambiguous at certain ranges. So I would say based off sets I've played and Lab scenarios Adam rules the air. His D2 is really good and extremely underrated, seriously check that shit out, so you can't just jump at him, you have to approach on the ground or use safe Jump options. His B2 also serves as a pretty viable AA when used correctly and is something to be respected in this MU. Adam lacks low moves besides slow lightning and d3 but is either plus or safe on his strings and normals meaning you have to fish for parries or just block until you know you can get out or strike fast enough to interrupt depending on what he's doing (lightning cancels from strings). His jump 2 divekick setups are for the most part easy to deal with unless cornered where they become imo more ambiguous. Joker can't really punish divekick at its lowest aside from seeing it and MB B3/F3 or punishing the backdash with revolver if seen coming. Mb Low lightning still trip guards Joker on third hit unless you have precise jump timing. Not that this matters unless he's on a health lead and your reactions are good enough to punish the start up preemptively. He has better use of trait and as Qwark said great meterless damage. Joker can be outzoned by a smart BA player that realizes this isn't prepatched Black Adam anymore. Imo I think Jokers strongest asset in the MU is when he knocks Adam down and/or has a decent health advantage and is with range to strike. Outside of Jokers strike range can be difficult for Joker due to what he has to respect, especially with health disadvantage. when Joker has health advantage he can play a bit more relaxed but would want to get it over quickly because Adam can change the tide with one good hit. @Qwark28 don't talk down to me like I'm an idiot because I know you will disagree with me. Be civil :joker:
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In my experience, BA's only option against us in the air is j1. I find his d2 very easy to stuff, and his other air normals I have always just beat out. But if he makes the read, j1 can be a problem.
The only time I parry in this matchup is reacting to b/f3's or in the gap after b23 where we are frametrapped and he can catch us with a d1, which works pretty well until they start adapting.
He has great damage, but so do we as long as we have at least a bar, and we still have pretty decent damage without meter if we are tricky with teeth. Just need to stay out of b2 range and space well when setting up teeth outside of frametraps. D2 is also either the same range or slightly more that his b2 if I'm not mistaken... not sure, but it certainly doesn't convert as well, so there's that.
I'm very unfamiliar with his weird divekick oki setups. I have no experience with them really. That is what potentially makes this fight in his favor IMO, but our oki can be much stronger. Also, need to adjust the timing of setups against his cage wakeup unless you are trying to stuff it because it has a ton of invul frames.
Start of the match I generally jb3 or d2 if I read him not going for b2.
We can destroy him in the corner or at a BGB.
He can fuck us up anywhere with better footsies and good reads, but we are better at turtling and zoning in this fight IMO.
More experience with his weird crossup stuff pending, I think it's pretty even.
 
Vengeance135

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
@StevoSuprem0
I agree with the knockdown game and quite a bit of what you are saying. The BGB however is a guessing game due to lightning cage imo. The smart BAs might get caught in one loop but realize they can either reverse their wake up or dash depending on what setup you are doing and with lightning cage and its ridiculous inv. Frames its a bit of a gamble so you have to make the appropriate read per bgb situation. Also the BAs I play generally pushblock me to hell so its easier to stick to max damage combos unless I can corner push. Even then pushblock is still very effective. Also the air to airs could be just at the highest point in which I'm trying to challenge which is my fault but it generally gets me salty when I read and jump 2 and he jump 2's over me lol. His D2 is fast but nearly invincible because of how small his hitbox is. Its like Batmans D2 which is really good. If you're stuffing it I think that's an error on the BA player you are playing. Not saying its Aquaman good but if you know how to use it in the MU is annoying as hell. Imo I think Jokers overall work in the MU mixed with what I said prior is what makes it 4-6. I'm not saying it a hard 4-6 but I definitely think it's just barely 4-6. That prepatched Black Adam though, smh those days were the worst
 
StevoSuprem0

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
You're right about BGB being a bit of a guessing game, but it's always in our favor IMO for the most part due to teeth preventing him from really following up much. If you place them too soon, then the invulnerability with go through them. I generally stick with MB f3 setups off of them in this fight, or nj3 around the lightning cage. But you're right, the timing is different enough that he can read the delay and backdash or wakeup and stop the loop with lightning cage, though it generally trades depending on your timing.
I am pretty solid at beating his d2 with j3. It reaches past the d2 hitbox pretty consistently, depending on your spacing. Try taking it into training the next time you get a chance and see if that's the problem? I think it's heavily dependent on the spacing though, and I may just be spacing it well each time. Flash's d2 is a much troublesome version of this in terms of lowering his hitbox, and we can STILL stuff that if you time it JUUUUuuuustt right (which I generally do not in that fight lol). Also, regarding AAing him with d2, it still works pretty well, you just need to delay it a bit (the timing is different due to the jump arc, which is super beat). I tend to stick with a2a j1 because I get too antsy and d2 early most of the time. If you get good at delaying it though, it's super easy to catch these floaty jump characters with d2 xx far teeth, ji2 far teeth, ji3 far teeth, 3 xx flower, 32~ xx flower for 39%, or into various setups.
At the end of the day, even and a soft 4-6 are more or less the same thing lol, so we're basically in agreement.
 
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