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Match-up Discussion King Hippo's DS Matchup Chart

KingHippo

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
Let's do it!


Big Advantage
Ares
Hawkgirl
Lex Luthor

Slight Advantage
Black Adam
Catwoman
Green Arrow
Harley Quinn
The Joker
Nightwing
Raven
Scorpion
Shazam

Even
Aquaman
Batman
Bane
Cyborg
Doomsday
Green Lantern
Killer Frost
Lobo
Sinestro
Solomon Grundy
Superman
Wonder Woman
Zatanna

Slight Disadvantage
Batgirl
The Flash
Martian Manhunter
Zod
 
EGP Wonder_Chef

EGP Wonder_Chef

Official Quan Chi Nerf Demander™
General M2Dave said:
As a former famous pre-patch Deathstroke player and low gunshots enthusiast, I say add Aquaman to "slight disadvantage". The rest looks good.

I think at the highest level Aquaman's footsies and damage output give Deathstroke too many problems.
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I (regretfully) agree with Dave. DS has the tools but he still has to work considerably harder than Aqua.

Also what changed in the DD matchup? I thought that was disadvantage?
 
KingHippo

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
RedRaptor10 said:
can u explain Green Lantern? I think he loses to WW too... nice chart.
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Sure.

I think Green Lantern is definitely a little perturbed by zoning in this matchup. His is solid, but his bullet can be low shot under and his hidden missiles have heavy startup. The best option is to probably try and walk his way into the range where a reversal lift would punish a low gunshot. He's going to play the b1 meta against DS since DS has a heavy punishment for a backdashed b13 and can stand 1 punish all stagger and cancel attempts that aren't lift. I would say GL plays DS's game until he can function into b1 range, then GL can play his game decently effective, provided he can guess right on the b13 meta. Definitely seems to be even on all sides, not accounting for GL and DS strong oki game.

Wonder Woman I think is actually a lot like DS, in a few ways. They are both extremely well rounded characters with one unique trait to their credit (Diana has an air dash and DS has a fullscreen low fireball). I think when you have the two face each other, you will see both of them have a strong midrange game and anti air to back it up. The fight shifts to DS when he has her full screen and similarly to Diana when she has him in the b1 guessing game. I would say both can do something about the other's unique trait, with DS's d2 and sword flip anti airs being good counters to airdash offense while Diana can go into sword and shield to half the chip and advance forward with her shield bash. I would argue neither of these characters having counters to the other's style outright gives an advantage to anyone, and makes it more even than anything else. Very interesting and fun fight since both characters have lots of tools.
 
Youphemism

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
As I mentioned in MITs chart thread, BG vs DS is a solid 5-5 (pls dont make me copy it, it's pretty long) I've played the matchup in numerous sets and it's super annoying for us to get in, never mind only getting a guaranteed 30% meterless if we do manage to get in and hit you :( I'll post my explanation here too if you want, but there's a few basic points
 
Fromundaman

Fromundaman

I write too much.
Youphemism said:
As I mentioned in MITs chart thread, BG vs DS is a solid 5-5 (pls dont make me copy it, it's pretty long) I've played the matchup in numerous sets and it's super annoying for us to get in, never mind only getting a guaranteed 30% meterless if we do manage to get in and hit you :( I'll post my explanation here too if you want, but there's a few basic points
Click to expand...
Just quote your other post. It will be a lot easier than people fishing around for it and will make it less likely for you to get misinterpreted.
 
Youphemism

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
@KingHippo

The BG vs DS mu is 5-5. Tedious for us since we can't risk smoke bombing and have to dash in instead or do a risky bat evade 1, we pretty much have to hold dat chip. Deathstroke does better in neutral and outdamages us midscreen. We do more damage in the corner for much less meter and of course we have vortex. You have generally better wakeups and of course as mentioned RedRaptor has enough anti BG wakeup tech to make BG look as free as both our countries. I have my own anti-wakeup tech with Batgirl but it covers all wakeups for all characters and is pretty broken, but you'll see that once I get back from my holiday and post the thread ;) BG-DS is a very even matchup though, solid 5-5
 
ryublaze

ryublaze

Noob
KingHippo said:
Sure.

I think Green Lantern is definitely a little perturbed by zoning in this matchup. His is solid, but his bullet can be low shot under and his hidden missiles have heavy startup. The best option is to probably try and walk his way into the range where a reversal lift would punish a low gunshot. He's going to play the b1 meta against DS since DS has a heavy punishment for a backdashed b13 and can stand 1 punish all stagger and cancel attempts that aren't lift. I would say GL plays DS's game until he can function into b1 range, then GL can play his game decently effective, provided he can guess right on the b13 meta. Definitely seems to be even on all sides, not accounting for GL and DS strong oki game.

Wonder Woman I think is actually a lot like DS, in a few ways. They are both extremely well rounded characters with one unique trait to their credit (Diana has an air dash and DS has a fullscreen low fireball). I think when you have the two face each other, you will see both of them have a strong midrange game and anti air to back it up. The fight shifts to DS when he has her full screen and similarly to Diana when she has him in the b1 guessing game. I would say both can do something about the other's unique trait, with DS's d2 and sword flip anti airs being good counters to airdash offense while Diana can go into sword and shield to half the chip and advance forward with her shield bash. I would argue neither of these characters having counters to the other's style outright gives an advantage to anyone, and makes it more even than anything else. Very interesting and fun fight since both characters have lots of tools.
Click to expand...
ah i see. yea i can see those MU's being 5-5. If the GL plays it smart and walks in instead of doing air rockets/turbine then he should do fine vs DS. For WW I think if she can instant air demigodess at the lowest point then she can get in for free without having to worry about DS's guns, but i don't think that's enough to change the MU. The reason i tend to think DS loses is because of her stupid b1 outranging his normals and her corner game IMO is better.
 
YOMI MITYEAP

YOMI MITYEAP

Noob
Youphemism said:
As I mentioned in MITs chart thread, BG vs DS is a solid 5-5 (pls dont make me copy it, it's pretty long) I've played the matchup in numerous sets and it's super annoying for us to get in, never mind only getting a guaranteed 30% meterless if we do manage to get in and hit you :( I'll post my explanation here too if you want, but there's a few basic points
Click to expand...
But when u hit DS, u get a vortex....... u have to account for how much dmg batgirl can accumulate off of touching someone. DS has to watch for teleport, which restricts DS's mobility. I actually play batgirl alot now, and i would say as of now 6 4 batgirl, but things can definitely change in my opinion.
 
Zoidberg747

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
I feel like the Raven matchup might be 5-5. It is a weird matchup because she has to make sure she is withing soul crush range to punish zoning yet she cant get too close because he has strong options up close. That being said since her walkspeed is so good it isnt that hard to maintain good spacing which puts her into a very good position IMO.
 
KingHippo

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
Zoidberg747 said:
I feel like the Raven matchup might be 5-5. It is a weird matchup because she has to make sure she is withing soul crush range to punish zoning yet she cant get too close because he has strong options up close. That being said since her walkspeed is so good it isnt that hard to maintain good spacing which puts her into a very good position IMO.
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DS imo is one of the few chars where the godly back walk speeds of chars like GL, Raven and Sinestro aren't as effective is because he has something to challenge them and make them not get off of crouch block. Also Raven's trait game, the key to most matchups, is good but not great here because she really does have to try and trick me into not shooting between singularities and pillars, which makes her have to get me off block (Since odds are if I land two gunshots at 12% she's not going to chip me for 12%). Her inability to really open up characters beyond the jump mixups she has on oki put her at a disadvantage here, imo. The match is at a stalemate so often but then she has to try and crush or get into trait or jump or do her hadouken to guess on the soul crush and I have an answer for those. Not unwinnable, of course, but out of the animal lady's favor.
 
Zoidberg747

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
KingHippo said:
DS imo is one of the few chars where the godly back walk speeds of chars like GL, Raven and Sinestro aren't as effective is because he has something to challenge them and make them not get off of crouch block. Also Raven's trait game, the key to most matchups, is good but not great here because she really does have to try and trick me into not shooting between singularities and pillars, which makes her have to get me off block (Since odds are if I land two gunshots at 12% she's not going to chip me for 12%). Her inability to really open up characters beyond the jump mixups she has on oki put her at a disadvantage here, imo. The match is at a stalemate so often but then she has to try and crush or get into trait or jump or do her hadouken to guess on the soul crush and I have an answer for those. Not unwinnable, of course, but out of the animal lady's favor.
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You might be right but I dont see why staying in crouch block is a bad thing, especially when any blocked gunshots is a soul crush punish along with any read movement. I might be able to concede slight advantage because if he gets the lifelead it becomes hell for her while he has the tools to comeback more easily.
 
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