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Batgirl, honestly

xKhaoTik

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
LtLuthor said:
I'm pretty sure b2u3 isn't consistently punishable by even 6 frame d+1's.

I saw Killer Frost's d+1 whiff due to the pushback during Civil War.
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Kf can punish it. Her d1 is not the punish because it is a short 7f jab. 111 is the punish, 6f advancing combo starter.
 
Captain Oxygen

Captain Oxygen

The end of one combo is the beginning of another
Batgirls one of the strongest characters in IGAU, when people lose to a top tier character a general blanket response is "THATS BROKEN!!!" when the word "broken" doesn't really mean anything other than the character is too good. And in terms of making people upset and salty, Batgirl is really easy to make people upset with. And for the most part, there's nothing wrong with people getting upset about a top tier character being top tier.

Don't get me wrong I want this character nerfed somewhat, but one thing I'm noticing is that people aren't punishing her Cartwheel options effectively, every single wakeup from Batgirl(All 20) is counter-able. Most of the time when I see a Batgirls DB2U variant of her cartwheel whiff, people just poke out a blocked d1 after.

I'd like to see B2U3 and changed to -10 to give more characters easier punishment options(It's already punishable so no big deal), and B12,B2D3 changed to -6 to make it so she has to respect any followups(No mashing out after a successful block). And adjust the hitbox on the first few hits of the batwheel(It's hitbox is pretty dumb).

Hopefully if there is a final patch, I'm curious to see how NRS would approach not over-nerfing this character.
 
Pan1cMode

Pan1cMode

AUS FGC represent!
Captain Oxygen said:
Batgirls one of the strongest characters in IGAU, when people lose to a top tier character a general blanket response is "THATS BROKEN!!!" when the word "broken" doesn't really mean anything other than the character is too good. And in terms of making people upset and salty, Batgirl is really easy to make people upset with. And for the most part, there's nothing wrong with people getting upset about a top tier character being top tier.

Don't get me wrong I want this character nerfed somewhat, but one thing I'm noticing is that people aren't punishing her Cartwheel options effectively, every single wakeup from Batgirl(All 20) is counter-able. Most of the time when I see a Batgirls DB2U variant of her cartwheel whiff, people just poke out a blocked d1 after.

I'd like to see B2U3 and changed to -10 to give more characters easier punishment options(It's already punishable so no big deal), and B12,B2D3 changed to -6 to make it so she has to respect any followups(No mashing out after a successful block). And adjust the hitbox on the first few hits of the batwheel(It's hitbox is pretty dumb).

Hopefully if there is a final patch, I'm curious to see how NRS would approach not over-nerfing this character.
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If both her low and overhead starter become punishable by the entire cast that is a very substantial nerf (which I personally don't think she deserves). Essentially she'd become a character with limited footsies, poor zoning, poor pressure and risky 50/50s. She also wouldn't have much in the way of maintaining pressure so there's that too.

If you wanna nerf BG, I think the fairest option would be to heavily scale f2 damage so she doesn't get past 42 in the corner. Perhaps a cartwheel hitbox nerf although to be honest, people aren't capitalising on punishes now so it seems much more useful than it actually is.

Same as I think the only nerfs MMH needs are slower trait regen time (around 12s) and no pushback on overhead tele.
 
Captain Oxygen

Captain Oxygen

The end of one combo is the beginning of another
-6 isn't punishable by anyone who isn't Zatanna,MMH, or Supermein?
A move with 6 frame startup is active on the 7th frame.
 
Pan1cMode

Pan1cMode

AUS FGC represent!
Captain Oxygen said:
-6 isn't punishable by anyone who isn't Zatanna,MMH, or Supermein?
A move with 6 frame startup is active on the 7th frame.
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I know that, I should have phrased it differently. I meant if her overhead become punishable and her low become an instant check/punish. The biggest factor is -6 destroys her already limited footsies and is way too hard a nerf anyways. She doesn't have armour or a safe way to get in and she already struggles up close against characters with great footsies and lots of plus strings.

Anyways, I don't think she really needs a nerf unless you're gonna nerf MMH, AM, Flash, WW, BM and Zod along with her
 
Captain Oxygen

Captain Oxygen

The end of one combo is the beginning of another
She should have to respect you if you guess right, just going for a negative on block d1 after a properly blocked low starter isn't very significant.
And her overhead is already punishable by a vast majority of the cast already.

Yes she should have slight nerfs, she is a top tier character and so are MMH,AM,Flash,Etc
 
A

AmplifiedShotz

Noob
Pan1cMode said:
If both her low and overhead starter become punishable by the entire cast that is a very substantial nerf (which I personally don't think she deserves). Essentially she'd become a character with limited footsies, poor zoning, poor pressure and risky 50/50s. She also wouldn't have much in the way of maintaining pressure so there's that too.
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So this is what the scorpion forums are like:joker:
 
Pan1cMode

Pan1cMode

AUS FGC represent!
Captain Oxygen said:
She should have to respect you if you guess right, just going for a negative on block d1 after a properly blocked low starter isn't very significant.
And her overhead is already punishable by a vast majority of the cast already.

Yes she should have slight nerfs, she is a top tier character and so are MMH,AM,Flash,Etc
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So you would support a nerf to all 6-7 of those top tiers? I'd rather just see them buff the low tiers more tbh.

AmplifiedShotz said:
So this is what the scorpion forums are like:joker:
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Exactly. Scorpion is bottom/low tier. Nerfing BG in this way would make her really bad.
 
LionHeart

LionHeart

Whisper within a sigh
I'd like to add that most characters can D1 into combo off of a blocked Low Cartwheel. I know for a fact Catwoman can while Ares for ex. can't cause of his D1's range.

Also just outside of footsie range, bat-girl will almost always try to use b1 to get in which is a low so if you have to block, always block low IMO.

Her overhead option is only back-dashable when at close range, max range OH cannot be backdashed so I wouldn't try to do it every time if I were you...

All in all, try and punish her dash-ins cause she will most likely dash in for OH or Low which are 15f and 14f respectively, which I believe give you plenty of time to react with some practice..
 
Youphemism

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
LionHeart said:
Her overhead option is only back-dashable when at close range, max range OH cannot be backdashed so I wouldn't try to do it every time if I were you...

All in all, try and punish her dash-ins cause she will most likely dash in for OH or Low which are 15f and 14f respectively, which I believe give you plenty of time to react with some practice..
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I didn't know that, I'll practice that later

And thank you, @LtLuthor might believe me now. It's a whole quarter of a second, its not impossible
 
Youphemism

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Captain Oxygen said:
I'd like to see B2U3 and changed to -10 to give more characters easier punishment options(It's already punishable so no big deal), and B12,B2D3 changed to -6 to make it so she has to respect any followups(No mashing out after a successful block). And adjust the hitbox on the first few hits of the batwheel(It's hitbox is pretty dumb).
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I think the better option would be to increase the recovery of b2u3 and/or b2d3 on whiff, you can already backdash after the b2 after a b2d3 or 111 anyway. I think more people should just practice blocking the b2 and backdashing after it. The low option being more negative I could agree with, -6 is reasonable. Batwheel is a pretty good move, armour-breaking and decent hitbox :)
 
Tony at Home

Tony at Home

Noob
Youphemism said:
I didn't know that, I'll practice that later

And thank you, @LtLuthor might believe me now. It's a whole quarter of a second, its not impossible
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No, it's not reactable.

You cannot react to 15 frames. You can't. This needs to stop. You have some legitimate points about Batgirl, but when you start making claims like "you can react to 15 frame mixups", you lose all your credibility.

Lex Luthor's F2 overhead is 15 frames, you cannot react to this.

Green Lantern's F3 overhead is 18 frames, you cannot react to this.

Killer Frost's F3 overhead is 19 frames, you cannot react to this.

I can go on, but by your definition of reactible, half of the true 50/50's in this game aren't really 50/50's at all.
 
Pan1cMode

Pan1cMode

AUS FGC represent!
Youphemism said:
I didn't know that, I'll practice that later

And thank you, @LtLuthor might believe me now. It's a whole quarter of a second, its not impossible
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You can react to a dash up b1 but not the 50/50. Reacting to a dash in b1 is not the same as reacting to the 50/50 from bola. Please stop spreading this nonsense, it's overshadowing the legitimate points you made.
 
Youphemism

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
LtLuthor said:
No, it's not reactable.

You cannot react to 15 frames. You can't. This needs to stop. You have some legitimate points about Batgirl, but when you start making claims like "you can react to 15 frame mixups", you lose all your credibility.

Lex Luthor's F2 overhead is 15 frames, you cannot react to this.

Green Lantern's F3 overhead is 18 frames, you cannot react to this.

Killer Frost's F3 overhead is 19 frames, you cannot react to this.

I can go on, but by your definition of reactible, half of the true 50/50's in this game aren't really 50/50's at all.
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Killer Frost's f3 seems faster...maybe I'm wrong about that though I dont know

I never said you can react to any of these RAW. But the average human reaction time is a fifth of a second, and Batgirls b1 and b2 are a quarter of a second. A fifth is 12 frames so TECHNICALLY it is reactable. Just because YOU cant doesn't mean its impossible. If youre going to attempt to prove me wrong at least back it up with facts instead of making empty statements and saying that I'VE lost credibility.

Obviously they're all 50/50s, that's dependent on if you can get out of them or not before it hits.

Don't take what I'm saying as being about batgirl, if you agree with my points about her then fair enough, im just stating other facts.
 
NYCj360

NYCj360

i Use a modded cyber now
Crathen said:
She's not broken , she's a high random factor w good reward character , her footsies are definately weaker than others but her snowball effect is huge at mid and even high level , you have to play perfect vs her or a mistake could cost you a match suddently and that's why she gets kinda "hated" by high level players , she is pretty dumb but has her fair share of even MUs and a couple bad matchups.
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This sums up my thoughts.

To the OP, the cons weren't really compelling, a few were "lol deal wit it". If one of my only options is to back dash without any sort of punish then the risk reward is always in her favor.

Oh and in regards to reacting to fraction of a second moves, those are reactions based off of someone reacting and taking into account one action, once you throw in other variables like detecting space and movement, your reaction time is seriously skewed. coming from a game where i had to block 1 frame lows and 3 frame overheads even i find it hard to react in this game with 15 frame overheads, it is damn near impossible to react, you may only anticipate and guess.
 
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Youphemism

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
G4S J360 said:
This sums up my thoughts.

To the OP, the cons weren't really compelling, a few were "lol deal wit it". If one of my only options is to back dash without any sort of punish then the risk reward is always in her favor.

Oh and in regards to reacting to fraction of a second moves, those are reactions based off of someone reacting and taking into account one action, once you throw in other variables like detecting space and movement, your reaction time is seriously skewed. coming from a game where i had to block 1 frame lows and 3 frame overheads even i find it hard to react in this game with 15 frame overheads, it is damn near impossible to react, you may only anticipate and guess.
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Yeah I do agree, maybe the u3 or d3 after b2 should have more recovery on whiff.

Let's forget about the reactions thing, we seem to be arguing about it and it's got nothing do with the topic which is whether Batgirl is actually broken/OP or not. It's very hard to react to but not impossible
 
THTB

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Captain Oxygen said:
-6 isn't punishable by anyone who isn't Zatanna,MMH, or Supermein?
A move with 6 frame startup is active on the 7th frame.
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Yes, but most people just account for the first active frame, too. IGAU does the same, actually.

At -6, anyone with a 6-frame normal could punish. This is a pretty decent list of characters, as well.
 
NYCj360

NYCj360

i Use a modded cyber now
THTB said:
Yes, but most people just account for the first active frame, too. IGAU does the same, actually.

At -6, anyone with a 6-frame normal could punish. This is a pretty decent list of characters, as well.
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Dat frame perfect thtb punish.


Youphemism said:
Let's forget about the reactions thing, we seem to be arguing about it and it's got nothing do with the topic which is whether Batgirl is actually broken/OP or not. It's very hard to react to but not impossible
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True, lets not derail.
 
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