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Match-up Discussion Nightwing Match-Up Discussion (1.06 and on)

RiBBz22

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
macro said:
Ok guys i'm going to say it i think Killer Frost is a 5-5.
Now hear me out i feel that whoever gets the life lead has the win. Because this is not a rushdown matchup at all. So in the start of a match i feel that Nightwing has the advantage with wing dings JF3 and B2 or even ground pound.
If Killer Frost gets hit by any of thoughs Nightwing now has the advantage so he can go back to zoning Killer Frost out in staff. Then Killer Frost will have to start rushing Nightwing down to get any damage ,Because even iceberg can be reversal attacked by ground pound. When it comes to Killer Frost trying to get back the life lead Nightwing will start using JB2 and Staff spin MB after the staff spin MB try and go for a JF3 into tick grab because they will not
try to back dash you to get back into you zoning. Or you could even do a ground spark cancel back dash to bait the
forward dash to make her block another staff spin MB. As well wing dings is great for going over daggers to help Nightwing to get the life lead or just to get in.
@RiBBz22
@Ne'er-do-well
@xKhaoTik
@RunwayMafia
Click to expand...
Holding the life lead for KF is not very difficult at all. Holding the life lead for Nightwing probably feels like holding on for dear life. I pretty much explained things from the Frost perspective a page or two ago. Parry is a huge difference maker in this MU and stops NW's offense. We have enormous control over the post slide guessing game because of parry as well. Keeping Frost out is a chore because one wrong read from one of your zoning tools means you are probably on a plane with a 1-way all expenses paid trip to vortex city. At least it is beautiful there.

6-4 Frost IMO
 
xKhaoTik

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
Absolutely not 5-5. The start of the matchup is already a huge risk for NW. If we block Wingdings, you get punished. If you hit, you don't gain anything from it. If we parry b2, you get punished. If it hits, you get a decent damaging combo, but nothing like frost gets.


Escrima is worthless in this MU. There's literraly nothing good about this stance in this MU because frost has the answer to everything he does, and the parry is just to overwhelming for him.

Staff stance is were he's best at. He gets access to his zoning, his frame traps, his lows, etc, which are all very good against frost, but even then, frost has the answers. Parry cripples his offense and hes left with doing JB2, all which can be punished on read. If frost gets her zoning going first, ground pound becomes useless because the most he'll get is a trade, and she wins the trade due to the damage from daggers. MB staff spin is pretty good too, but that'll be blown up on a read.


I do agree that this MU isn't based on rushdown at all. Its all a zoning game, but frost is better at it. Even when NW is doing his rushing, parry or MBF3 will be the answer to his offense.

6-4 Frost.
 
Qwark28

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
How is Frost's zoning any good? You can jump daggers on reaction and iceberg is an inferior ftd.
 
xKhaoTik

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
Qwark28 said:
How is Frost's zoning any good? You can jump daggers on reaction and iceberg is an inferior ftd.
Click to expand...

This is actually one of the MUs where her zoning is actually good lol. And since NWs will be in Staff stance in this MU, they won't be jumping it. Frost also trades with GP and she wins it.
 
macro

macro

Eezeepeezee
RiBBz22 said:
Holding the life lead for KF is not very difficult at all. Holding the life lead for Nightwing probably feels like holding on for dear life. I pretty much explained things from the Frost perspective a page or two ago. Parry is a huge difference maker in this MU and stops NW's offense. We have enormous control over the post slide guessing game because of parry as well. Keeping Frost out is a chore because one wrong read from one of your zoning tools means you are probably on a plane with a 1-way all expenses paid trip to vortex city. At least it is beautiful there.

6-4 Frost IMO
Click to expand...
xKhaoTik said:
Absolutely not 5-5. The start of the matchup is already a huge risk for NW. If we block Wingdings, you get punished. If you hit, you don't gain anything from it. If we parry b2, you get punished. If it hits, you get a decent damaging combo, but nothing like frost gets.


Escrima is worthless in this MU. There's literraly nothing good about this stance in this MU because frost has the answer to everything he does, and the parry is just to overwhelming for him.

Staff stance is were he's best at. He gets access to his zoning, his frame traps, his lows, etc, which are all very good against frost, but even then, frost has the answers. Parry cripples his offense and hes left with doing JB2, all which can be punished on read. If frost gets her zoning going first, ground pound becomes useless because the most he'll get is a trade, and she wins the trade due to the damage from daggers. MB staff spin is pretty good too, but that'll be blown up on a read.


I do agree that this MU isn't based on rushdown at all. Its all a zoning game, but frost is better at it. Even when NW is doing his rushing, parry or MBF3 will be the answer to his offense.

6-4 Frost.
Click to expand...
I wish i could verse you guys so i could see what your saying. And zoning out frost is not that hard i feel. Also when it comes to wing dings you just need to have the right spacing plus b2 and frame traps are not going to be used that much .Don't get me wrong i do get what you guys are saying and the parry is great in the matchup i just feel that alot of Nightwing are not playing it the best that they could ,and even if it does turn out to be a 6-4 i hope the info will help people in this matchup.
 
xKhaoTik

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
macro said:
I wish i could verse you guys so i could see what your saying. And zoning out frost is not that hard i feel. Also when it comes to wing dings you just need to have the right spacing plus b2 and frame traps are not going to be used that much .Don't get me wrong i do get what you guys are saying and the parry is great in the matchup i just feel that alot of Nightwing are not playing it the best that they could ,and even if it does turn out to be a 6-4 i hope the info will help people in this matchup.
Click to expand...


I'm glad you mentioned JB2 in staff stance. That's really good in the MU but dont abuse it. You're probably the only NW I've seen on the forums talk about that in the frost MU.


Also, random side bit, but I think its hilarious how Frost parries one of NWs lows in escrima stance lol. Idk what string it is, but its a 3 hit string that ends with NW hitting the opponents legs, which is a low. Parry too stronk
 
macro

macro

Eezeepeezee
xKhaoTik said:
I'm glad you mentioned JB2 in staff stance. That's really good in the MU but dont abuse it. You're probably the only NW I've seen on the forums talk about that in the frost MU.


Also, random side bit, but I think its hilarious how Frost parries one of NWs lows in escrima stance lol. Idk what string it is, but its a 3 hit string that ends with NW hitting the opponents legs, which is a low. Parry too stronk
Click to expand...
Ya it's D3 and i didn't know you could parry that lol. Not alot of Nightwing use that move but it is good for the Zatanna matchup because if she trys to do any type of teleport after the D3 a MB ground pound with punish her for it.:p
 
RiBBz22

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
xKhaoTik said:
I'm glad you mentioned JB2 in staff stance. That's really good in the MU but dont abuse it. You're probably the only NW I've seen on the forums talk about that in the frost MU.


Also, random side bit, but I think its hilarious how Frost parries one of NWs lows in escrima stance lol. Idk what string it is, but its a 3 hit string that ends with NW hitting the opponents legs, which is a low. Parry too stronk
Click to expand...
Chongo uses jb2 all the time in staff it isn't that big of a deal tbh. NW has way more problems with Frost's stuff.
 
RiBBz22

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
macro said:
I wish i could verse you guys so i could see what your saying. And zoning out frost is not that hard i feel. Also when it comes to wing dings you just need to have the right spacing plus b2 and frame traps are not going to be used that much .Don't get me wrong i do get what you guys are saying and the parry is great in the matchup i just feel that alot of Nightwing are not playing it the best that they could ,and even if it does turn out to be a 6-4 i hope the info will help people in this matchup.
Click to expand...
Play @Rickyraws I am sure he is fine in that MU and is on XBL.
 
Sultan

Sultan

Kitana, Scorpion
I could see this match-up being even at the highest levels of play. Our biggest talking point is parry, and parry's a double-edged sword. It stutters NW's pressure, sure, but it's always a risk against a mindful opponent. Every time we throw it out it's on read, we're not responding 90% of the time... So this notion that it's so crippling to Nightwing only applies if the Nightwing isn't using it against us. I think that's part of Macro's point, that there are different ways of thinking about the match-up.

The headgame of parry is pretty complex in this match-up. We have to use it for it to be relevant, obviously, but we leave ourselves open to baits which lead to big punishes for the NW player. If we read that the NW player is respecting it too much or trying to blow it up with jumping attacks or something then we obviously have options to counter that, but that requires us to make the correct read. This realm of mind-games doesn't favor either player, imo. It feels pretty even to me, at least on paper.

And as far as ground pound goes, it's better than iceberg in every single way... we can't punish it on block, while he can punish iceberg on block... it's low, ours is mid... it actually has a hitbox that catches jumps... the mb version is godlike. The moment Frost blocks a ground pound, NW has a mind game to work off of: our best counter to ground pound spam is, after blocking one, dashing forward on a read to punish the follow-up ground pound. But NW could read that and delay his ground pound...

And I do not see how daggers locks down a good NW from full screen.

None of which is to say he has an advantage or that we don't. As it stands right now, I do think we have the edge, but not for any of the above reasons.
1) Our slides a bitch for him. I am not even a little bit afraid of going -4 against him. I will abuse the hell out of slide until he forces me to respect him.
2) His anti-airs suck, so he has to deal with us jumping, which is huge.
3) Our damage output is just that much higher. Every good read on our part is massive and converts into a vortex opportunity.
 
RiBBz22

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
Ne'er-do-well said:
I could see this match-up being even at the highest levels of play. Our biggest talking point is parry, and parry's a double-edged sword. It stutters NW's pressure, sure, but it's always a risk against a mindful opponent. Every time we throw it out it's on read, we're not responding 90% of the time... So this notion that it's so crippling to Nightwing only applies if the Nightwing isn't using it against us. I think that's part of Macro's point, that there are different ways of thinking about the match-up.

The headgame of parry is pretty complex in this match-up. We have to use it for it to be relevant, obviously, but we leave ourselves open to baits which lead to big punishes for the NW player. If we read that the NW player is respecting it too much or trying to blow it up with jumping attacks or something then we obviously have options to counter that, but that requires us to make the correct read. This realm of mind-games doesn't favor either player, imo. It feels pretty even to me, at least on paper.

And as far as ground pound goes, it's better than iceberg in every single way... we can't punish it on block, while he can punish iceberg on block... it's low, ours is mid... it actually has a hitbox that catches jumps... the mb version is godlike. The moment Frost blocks a ground pound, NW has a mind game to work off of: our best counter to ground pound spam is, after blocking one, dashing forward on a read to punish the follow-up ground pound. But NW could read that and delay his ground pound...

And I do not see how daggers locks down a good NW from full screen.

None of which is to say he has an advantage or that we don't. As it stands right now, I do think we have the edge, but not for any of the above reasons.
1) Our slides a bitch for him. I am not even a little bit afraid of going -4 against him. I will abuse the hell out of slide until he forces me to respect him.
2) His anti-airs suck, so he has to deal with us jumping, which is huge.
3) Our damage output is just that much higher. Every good read on our part is massive and converts into a vortex opportunity.
Click to expand...
Parry is the biggest talking point for a reason. Nightwing wants to pressure you and abuse his advantage strings. Because of parry and the threat of the combo following it, the Nightwing player is made to respect that and think about it every time he has an opportunity to start offense. If I had to think about that every time I wanted to hit one of my good normals it sounds horrible. NW is the one who has to react and really put his life on the line for some of these reads, as we are not risking nearly as much before the situation resets and the NW player is set to gamble again.
 
Sultan

Sultan

Kitana, Scorpion
AK L0rdoftheFLY said:
I have no Kf exp. who wants to play on Xbl this weekend?
Click to expand...
I'm always down.

RiBBz22 said:
Parry is the biggest talking point for a reason. Nightwing wants to pressure you and abuse his advantage strings. Because of parry and the threat of the combo following it, the Nightwing player is made to respect that and think about it every time he has an opportunity to start offense. If I had to think about that every time I wanted to hit one of my good normals it sounds horrible. NW is the one who has to react and really put his life on the line for some of these reads, as we are not risking nearly as much before the situation resets and the NW player is set to gamble again.
Click to expand...
Nightwing is only forced to pressure us if we have a significant health lead. That's a pretty big if that you're ignoring. (And our parry's only so scary if we have meter. Another if. Without it we have the worst parry in the game.) And I don't get "NW is the one who has to react" - he has to react to a whiffed parry? A parry is a reactive move, not an active move. We're not dashing in and parrying (not that that's a bad idea), we're parrying when he comes at us - I'd argue we're the one reacting.

My point is basically this: does he have to pressure us? Is that necessary? Everything you stated is based on the premise that we're waiting for him to come to us, but what if he's waiting for us to come to him?
 
Shaazzyam

Shaazzyam

undefeated online evo champion
I played @General M2Dave Zod for a couple of games. Here are my first impressions:


1. It feels winnable. Really.
2. Fuck interactables
3. This is my favorite MU

I think NW can do it, but I need to grind it out way more before i give my final verdict.
 
RiBBz22

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
Ne'er-do-well said:
I'm always down.


Nightwing is only forced to pressure us if we have a significant health lead. That's a pretty big if that you're ignoring. (And our parry's only so scary if we have meter. Another if. Without it we have the worst parry in the game.) And I don't get "NW is the one who has to react" - he has to react to a whiffed parry? A parry is a reactive move, not an active move. We're not dashing in and parrying (not that that's a bad idea), we're parrying when he comes at us - I'd argue we're the one reacting.

My point is basically this: does he have to pressure us? Is that necessary? Everything you stated is based on the premise that we're waiting for him to come to us, but what if he's waiting for us to come to him?
Click to expand...
I am saying he is the one who has to make the read if he can start his offense or not when he is close to us. Most of the time the NW player is going to stagger their strings on some of these strings in order to bait the parry which can also lead to multiple parry attempts that give you more changes to land one. My point is the life lead for Nightwing is not equal to the life lead with Frost. It is much harder IMO to hold the lead with NW. Also, I definitely am mixing in dashing in and parrying.

Here are some games from a while ago against Chongo. Game count isn't important, more so the amount of work that NW has to do in the MU IMO.

 
BigMilk

BigMilk

Former Divine Power Abuser
I think NW vs KF is 6-4 KF but I also believe that at the highest level it is 5-5. I think there are things that need to be exploited and studied further. For example, the poor priority of KF slide, or NW understanding of post slide options, how NW cant universally jump back or neutral jump punish like most characters due to his slow jump startup and such. Very interesting MU indeed
 
macro

macro

Eezeepeezee
RiBBz22 said:
I am saying he is the one who has to make the read if he can start his offense or not when he is close to us. Most of the time the NW player is going to stagger their strings on some of these strings in order to bait the parry which can also lead to multiple parry attempts that give you more changes to land one. My point is the life lead for Nightwing is not equal to the life lead with Frost. It is much harder IMO to hold the lead with NW. Also, I definitely am mixing in dashing in and parrying.

Here are some games from a while ago against Chongo. Game count isn't important, more so the amount of work that NW has to do in the MU IMO.

Click to expand...
@RM Chongo
Man we need to have a talk. Even if you don't have the life lead and you have the advantage keep throwing out ground pound ,also call her jumps with ground pound so you can keep your zoning advantage. And if your opponent keeps walking back like that start jumping back with 1 in staff, then start doing ground pounds if your in escrima do jump back wing dings then go into staff and start doing ground pound. Also do staff spin mb after a 1f1 if you do a 1f1 in this matchup. You also just need to stop waking up as much as well as doing mb b3.
 
Chongo

Chongo

Dead Kings Rise
macro said:
@RM Chongo
Man we need to have a talk. Even if you don't have the life lead and you have the advantage keep throwing out ground pound ,also call her jumps with ground pound so you can keep your zoning advantage. And if your opponent keeps walking back like that start jumping back with 1 in staff, then start doing ground pounds if your in escrima do jump back wing dings then go into staff and start doing ground pound. Also do staff spin mb after a 1f1 if you do a 1f1 in this matchup. You also just need to stop waking up as much as well as doing mb b3.
Click to expand...
That was like in September. I know what to do
 
RiBBz22

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
macro said:
@RM Chongo
Man we need to have a talk. Even if you don't have the life lead and you have the advantage keep throwing out ground pound ,also call her jumps with ground pound so you can keep your zoning advantage. And if your opponent keeps walking back like that start jumping back with 1 in staff, then start doing ground pounds if your in escrima do jump back wing dings then go into staff and start doing ground pound. Also do staff spin mb after a 1f1 if you do a 1f1 in this matchup. You also just need to stop waking up as much as well as doing mb b3.
Click to expand...
Yeah, and we can not adapt
 
RiBBz22

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
RM Chongo said:
I haven't played his frost in a while, but I've played @xKhaoTik a ton and I'm pretty sure he'll tell you I can play the MU just fine.
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@macro we have played since then....I just took a break from the game when the PS4 came out for a few months...anyways like I said the game count doesn't matter I am sure we played a closer set since then. That is not the point really. Chongo is really good, the video just helps outlines that Frost has the advantage in the MU imo, and how annoying parry can be. I am sure that we both could have played better.
 
macro

macro

Eezeepeezee
RM Chongo said:
I haven't played his frost in a while, but I've played @xKhaoTik a ton and I'm pretty sure he'll tell you I can play the MU just fine.
Click to expand...
How much better do you do? I just want to see some more recent games so it shows the matchup a bit better,i would record myself and Ne'er-do-well but it would be from a tablet camera lol.
 
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