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Question Is Sub Zero completely non-tournament viable?

Enenra

Go to hell.
Well guys, I used Rain all day and I like him. I used Smoke for shizz and giggz and I've decided I'm better with him, I win more, and I have more fun. Thanks guys. I feel good.
 

charlieonline

Search "CaseyJones" for active profile.
I wouldn't be surpsied if it's Kenshi and Tom will apply the corner game he developed with Sub and design something that works like that for Kenshi.
 

STB Bodam

"Game... Blouses."
After saying it's not anyone that was mentioned in this thread; I've come to the conclusion that it's either...

Skarlet - She's been talked about as a potential top-five character and has yet to have a real face for her.

Sonya - I don't know if his top-five is outdated or not, but if you're leaving Sonya out -- you're just flat out wrong.

Kabal - He said "Best character in the game." Who else but Kabal's broke ass?
 

Panque

Random foreign guy
Sub's pressure isn't bad when his 2 connects on crouch characters, man. And I have to agree with STH, Ice Clone is one of the best non enhanced move of the game. Too bad the enhanced version just suck ass lol.
It isn't bad, but it's far from great, since you can armor through a 212 to begin with, you don't even have to guess if the last 2 is coming or not if you have one bar. Sure, you can use 214, but that will end the pressure if the opponent blocks it. I don't think his pressure builds much meter either, but I admit I have never looked into it. His overhead is quite slow (And unsafe? I don't use it as often as I should, so I don't quite remember...). To fix sub's pressure I think his 2 would have to hit mid and he would need a faster overhead. To be actually GREAT, he would need a tool to force airborne opponents into more pressure, like kabal's/shang's knee, cage's nut punch or something that resets the situation. b121 is good, but it's not enough. Right now, I think SZ's pressure is just annoying against the characters with high hitboxes. Seems to me that you have to literally mindfuck your opponent with some big ass reads to get a small reward afterwards.

Ice Clone is good against a few characters, and can create some nice situations... But I don't think i would rate it even top 5 on a special moves list. I think KL's spin, Noob's upknee, Cryrax' net, Sektor's flamethrower and every projectile that can be used instantly in the air are better moves and less situational, really. There are probably more that I can't think about right now.
Maybe it would be better, if SZ's damage wasn't so horrible, specially on a frozen airborne opponent.


@BodamEscapePlan He said his new char HAD a face before, so i'ts not skarlet.
Sonya has many faces around the world, and Kabal's face is the alien we earthlings call REO.

I was thinking about mileena some time ago, but I can't say for sure that she is top 5, so I agree with Bidu, our best bet would be Kung Lao.
 

derOeler

Death comes to all!
Using Sub Zero is an uphill battle almost all the time. He needs a Buff.

btw: Bradys new main is Smoke.
 

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
What do all the good SZ players have to say? Ones that arent completely influenced by what Brady says. I've played him for quite a while on and off, mainly in his bad matchups and I seriously dont think its as bad as everybody says. Sure its hard, but everybody has some hard matchups in this game.

I also play Baraka who I'd say has a worse time than SZ, but he is a beast character even so.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
What do all the good SZ players have to say? Ones that arent completely influenced by what Brady says. I've played him for quite a while on and off, mainly in his bad matchups and I seriously dont think its as bad as everybody says. Sure its hard, but everybody has some hard matchups in this game.

I also play Baraka who I'd say has a worse time than SZ, but he is a beast character even so.
I'm not good... but I agree. I struggle with his tough match ups... but that is on me... not the character. I'm trying to find ways to even those odds... using b1,2 more... I think it is a great poke punisher.
My question is... what do YOU think. Do we just need to focus on our fundamentals more? I think I can speak for the board here when I say we definitely want/need/love/accept high level opinions that help us level up.
 

CptXecution

Brain Dead Bro
What do all the good SZ players have to say? Ones that arent completely influenced by what Brady says. I've played him for quite a while on and off, mainly in his bad matchups and I seriously dont think its as bad as everybody says. Sure its hard, but everybody has some hard matchups in this game.

I also play Baraka who I'd say has a worse time than SZ, but he is a beast character even so.
I wouldn't say I'm a good Sub player but I know he can compete it really comes down to the player and how well he can make reads.
 

charlieonline

Search "CaseyJones" for active profile.
After saying it's not anyone that was mentioned in this thread; I've come to the conclusion that it's either...

Skarlet - She's been talked about as a potential top-five character and has yet to have a real face for her.

Sonya - I don't know if his top-five is outdated or not, but if you're leaving Sonya out -- you're just flat out wrong.

Kabal - He said "Best character in the game." Who else but Kabal's broke ass?
According to Tom, Jax is #1 so if he chose "the best" then it would be Jax
 

Plop

Noob
I don't know why everyone thinks Tom is gonna main Kano. I can't see that. I'd really love it if he did though. It'd be great to get Kano tips from Brady. If anyone can show Kano's potential, its Tom.
Lethal Legend, i think you may be right though. I can see Tom with Rain
 

salvificblood

Worst Sub-Zero Ever
What do all the good SZ players have to say? Ones that arent completely influenced by what Brady says. I've played him for quite a while on and off, mainly in his bad matchups and I seriously dont think its as bad as everybody says. Sure its hard, but everybody has some hard matchups in this game.

I also play Baraka who I'd say has a worse time than SZ, but he is a beast character even so.
The worst of the problems, and there are a few (too much armour in the game, universal dash nerf, etc), is the low hitbox issue, purely because so many of the characters with low hitboxes are characters Sub is forced to chase and play aggressively against. Even if you set up your offense with d4, low hitbox characters can poke you out of 21 because 2 whiffs when they're crouching. Somehow, Sub has to get them to stand up but f4 is so risky and incredibly sketchy. You'd be surprised how often I do f4, iceball on someone's wakeup, see they're crouch blocking but the f4 whiffs, the iceball doesn't make it onto the screen as a result and I get full combo punished. So what does that really leave him with for pressure in his really bad matchups?

That said, Sub-Zero is completely fine against the majority of the cast, as you know. He's fine even against the likes of Sindel who can zone him all game, so he's not a "bad character" he just has his flaws and there are quite a few top tier characters who make his life miserable purely because he can't sustain pressure even once he does it all the way across the screen to them. Outside of that bracket of characters, I think his character balance is absolutely fine.

Off topic, I think Tom's main is going to be Mileena.
 

Bidu

the CHILL of DESPAIR
Basically what Sub-Zero need more than anything else (imo) is his '2' to hit mid instead of high. That would make rushdown Sub-Zero a lot of more fun (and viable) to play. From the top of my head, from all the buffs I'd like to see, this is the one I'd appreciate most, really. And let's be honest, a character with so many problems and bad match ups like SZ, this would be far from overpower.
 

Enenra

Go to hell.
I'm hoping MKKE will beef up Sub Zero like how MKT beefed him up after UMK3.

In a more sensical version? I sincerely hope NRS is brewing up some fixes for characters like Sub Zero, Jade, Baraka, CSZ, etc. If not, I'll stick to Smoke, but I'd love it if my favorite character didn't suck in my favorite game. He is an ice ninja... That's too cool to suck.
 

Panque

Random foreign guy
I don't think MKKE will change anything in this game. Paulo did say he would work on something when he gets some free time, but I doubt that will be before MKKE.

lol at people talking about good reads like Sub is the only character that needs to/can do it. Plus, he gets the lowest rewards for them, while the most of the rest of the cast... nvm, don't feel like complaining about his damage AGAIN...

Buffs for sub: 2 to hit crouching low hitbox characters and safer and faster overhead. That would make his pressure great. forgot I already said that

Tom's main should be KL or Mileena really, Smoke has a face. The rest of the cast isn't top 5 imo.